You are making me miss how I met yer mother, so if you are LANGUAGE, ILDAUDID! - FAIN round with me Xenny drop it for 1 hour please.

Ok so Hera was jealous of Zeus's girlfriends, but not of his Temples.... So because Zues tapped some chick named Josie, why would should Bob, another follower of Zeus be hit by statues of Hera while walking to his house? Hera could give a shite less about Bob.

Personal hatred by a god upon GUY A/GIRL A, should not affect all members of the order that GUY A/GIRL A belong to.

I'm not. I think that the OOC example doesn't hold water at all. There are quite a few examples of the followers of one of the Pantheon being set upon by others of the Pantheon, or by followers of that Pantheon acting upon the order of their Divine.

Obviously, things change a lot when it's translated into the Real World, but in the mythology at least they were extremely petty and would fool with mortals for absolutely no reason at all. Following an opposing Divinity was a fair bit more than 'no reason'.

Ok then, so you think all statues and totems should hit every member of another order that the org feels?

You do not think that statues and totems hitting members from other orders in no way effects the way Lusternia could be played?

Of course it affects the way Lusternia is played. I'm not sure that just changing statues and totems will change much, since as you yourself said, the Divine do speak up when things they don't like are happening.

However, at this point, you're using OOC reasoning to justify the change. If they want to do the change, they'll do it based on its own merits as it mostly affects the Divine and their own orders. It's their choice. I'm just speaking to the OOC comparison itself, which I feel is faulty. The Pantheon was exceedingly petty. Pretty much all of the stories I used to read about it were based on that pettiness. Hercules, Odysseus, etc, etc, all were driven on by the Divine Above.

I'm just teasing you; I agree with your point, but Zeus (heck, pretty much any Greek god) is a bad example.

Aye, the Pantheon could be seen as pettiness... but they never involved themselves in "everything" so to speak. They would not care that A follower of some god lived in a city that primarily was devoted to another god.


I think the change to the totems and statues would start the process of change that would be needed. Right now the divine do speak sometimes about meaningless petty things that really are nothing. They pry into things using their divine powers that do not need prying, etc, etc...

But by changing the totems. A follower of Viravain could then live in Serenwilde. The Gods of Serenwilde could bitch and moan and cry and use their powers to better their self esteem, since it would seem they are quite scared of another believer in their org. But the Viravain follower could officially live there without anything more than shouts, whines, pity parties, and such. Unless the CL has no backbone and bends to the will of the God whining about it.

Then it would turn into an org issue, not solely an "order" or "divine whining" issue. The org would then decide what should be done if anything. Most likely they would demand that the person forget Viravain. This person could say they did, and of course if the god/dess was so petty and lacked so much self esteem, they could pry and say that this person did not revoke Viravain. Which of course could lead to banishment.

But if the CL and the members of the Org who control/work with things could simply say "(Insert Divine Name), deal with it. We are not so misotheistic/antitheistic as to think that everyone must follow you."








You're so mean Shammy. You know how horrible I am at describing things and using references

But thank you for agreeing with my point.



--------------------------------

The bottom line is. If totems and statues were not tuneable to orders, that would still be evened out by shrines and sanctified rooms which can enemy orders.

I am quite sure there are gods like Morgfyre and Fain (who I actually have in depth dealings with along my journey in Lusternia) would not be so petty as to specifically alienate a follower of Terentia in their city. They might keep a closer eye on them if they chose to spy on them in the first place. (Meaning if they actually took the time to spy on everyone in their city to find out if they were members of other orders.) Then if they did something that was against the laws of the city/commune they might say something. At best they would just make sure they are not causing any big trouble, but they will keep this info to themselves.

And no offense to any other "divine" here. It is just that I know Fain and Morgy enough to know they are not so petty as to snoop every single person to find out things then shout them out on CT's. They are the type of gods who think mortals are nothing but playthings to manipulate into things that serve their needs best.

(Oops again I ramble)

Point is, the removal of the ability to target order members by totems and statues should be removed. They are already targettable by order shrines. Not all order members are out to get another divine. No need for the incessant overkill of order targetting.

Gods will need to, for a lack better words, "grow up" and be mature about their abilites of snooping. If they can't do that then maybe they shouldn't be given all the power that they actually have (from an OOC perspective).

I have been told some crazy from some players who used to be gods, things they have seen which were wild, and much much more, all by use of the powers a god has to snoop. Now the players who used to be gods that actually told me such things, also had enough self control not to bust people out IG about their "private actions".

Gods may have the ability to snoop. Yet it is not often you see a God tell a player about how their husband/wife just cheated on them while on an aetherbubble with someone else. They know how to keep things like that to themselves (I hope) so they should just use that same self control when it comes to the knowledge of people being in other orders than them.

Or simply make it so gods do not see what orders people are in, unless it is their own order. There really is no reason they need to know. The snoop things is more of a security/protection thing for IRE against freaky ass pervs and such anyways.

Issue. you're focusing on gods solely as rp characters.

This is wrong

The gods play their role but at the same time function on an ooc level within the game as the administrators. Limiting their ability to do something limits their ability within that role.

At the moment you seem to be asking that admin be unable to tell if someone is in an order as well as players via totems.

Totems we can't get around, if you want to recode totem/statues/manses/shops then try for that (Seriously each of those should be able to prove order affiliations)

however the admin obviously have the ability to say something along the lines of
"Hey morgy can you ignore the fact that Spongebob is in evens order? setting up some order rp"
If our admins really take to the idea then this conversation may evolve into some event where spongebob steals the sacred doily for Elostians evil plot before fleeing back to Celest.

If your issue has been with specific admin then as we've been told many times there is the support email address.

Yes. This would be cool. The worship or er veneration? of a few individuals gives the ascendant some advantage like mitigating essence loss to a point or something.

Nah I could care less about specific imms watching this and that and the other, and yes I understand the very important role of the whole OOC stuff they need to do. One of the problems for them it seems is understanding the line between IC and OOC. I think that knowing everything about any player would be deemed OOC, so using that to tell an org not to let them in they are a member of blah blah's order, would be breaking OOC/IC rules from what I read you say (I think)

Yes if they could be told to limit the knowledge they bestow on the basin to exclude what order affiliations people are would be great.

But my main problem truly is with the totems and statues. They are used to check order affiliations, when they should really be used as a means of defense against enemies. To enemy every order but what your god allows is a bit silly and IMO taking advantage of the totems/statues.

The totems and statues would function just fine if they tuned to enemy orgs and specific people. Why bother with orders? Except to ensure you have no one from an order you do not wish in your org.

I think order shrines should be the only things able to enemy other orders. And honestly in a battle and shrine powers up, you can then tell if someone is an enemy to the order who has a shrine going.

But I think totems/statues we CAN get around, how hard is it to exclude orders from the coding really? Solely for totems and statues... They coud simply send a "I don't understand what you mean." line in when someone tries to tune a statue/totem to an order couldnt they? Is the Rapture system so unworkable that they cannot omit 1 thing from the equation?

You're saying that a gods shrine should be better than a god at detecting details of a players order status?



My point is that your rant seems to be about people being unable to get into an org without being checked for orders that the org does not allow (read org not god, serenwilde does not allow gods who work against it)

Now if I suspected you were a member of an inappropriate org all I need to do is ask you to enter my manse, I can set the privs to block/allow members of specific orders from memory. So if you can't/can enter then you are a member of a banned order.

Same with shops, put an item in there. If they can't buy the item they are in a banned order.

Hrm, if you know where the order is and the order has a place only they can safely enter then make them enter it.

Bah I somehow messed up and lost my original responses to this, so it will be worse now most likely.

Basic point remains the same... I personally think IC wise, it would make a nice shift and open up new doors and ways to play by simply eliminating the totems/statues part, and asking the divine to keep order affiliations to themselves as they do with all the perverted furry aslaran sex and stuff that we all know they have seen. Hell I have ghosted into a room and seen novices... well just trust me... I have seen some crazy crap because I went there.... They ALWAYS see the crazy crap. So keeping order affiliations to themselves would/shouldn't be hard to do. Should it?

You're confusing me now, if I don't want you in serenwilde I'll enemy you and bam, all totems will hit you.

If someones using a totem to check you then you'd better be sticking around until they are satisfied or you're not getting what you want.

Also as far as manses go

manse set fulcrux perms add member of

You can enter, you are a member of one of those orders.

Now you are confusing me.... Right now yes totems hit order members. But if you mean you would enemy me to my own org just because I won't go into your manse?? Well that would be something that had to be decided by TMC and the CL not you alone. Which would mean if you enemied me without approval you will be in for a long discussion as well.

This is exactly what is wrong with totems/statues in the first place... Using them as order detectors is not what they were designed for. They were made to protect the commune/city from enemies. Not used as a fool-proof lie detector and order finder. Its is the whole reason the change is needed, people using totems/statues solely for this reason is really crappy gameplay IMO.



And true you can do this, but again, is this not a way of manipulating the basic coding of a game to on RP and make yet another lie detector by using the code this way?


The change should be made to increase RP not recalibrate other ways to use other objects as lie detector tests. I just don't see why you would wish to kill gameplay by insisting on using things such as totems/statues and now manses to detect what order someone belongs in.

No wonder the admins would think it would be hard to code. They would have to change everything that people would try to use to bypass the system to have RP.

I am sorry Saran that you feel this way, and I pray others won't sit there and want to use manses as lie detectors if totems/statues were reworked. I know for sure that If that was the case I would always refuse to enter anyone elses manse but my own and be damned what any CL told me. I don't think I should have to be forced into someone elses home so they can use a lie detector there, that would have been removed from the totems/statues.

edit- If this sounds aggressive I do not mean too, it is 4:30 and I am exhausted. So it is not meant to be aggressive towards you Saran. I just can't explain it any clearer on how these things are keeping alot of RP away by being used as a "lie detector" and by gods telling everyone who is in who's order. I mean in Morgy's order, hardly anyone knows who is in it, it is set to secret so all you see are someone says, unless you are a certain rank. And I mean that is useless too if Fain where to say on CT who was all in Morg's order.

I didn't really mean you, I just meant the general "you" as in anyone known to be in an order we don't want in. Anyone that leaves totems/statues tuned against orders are wasting them... maybe not cities but anyone found to have a totem tuned incorrectly usually incurs the wrath of the tmc (aah shorlen for that decree that the hartstone would not do that and had the totems tuned to our enemies)



You don't seem to be getting my point. I am saying that what you propose will not resolve the issue that you are complaining about, because the work arounds already exist and any change that does not include changes to them will not resolve the issue...

*eyebrow raising smiley*

I voted 'no' simply because order conflict is meant to happen in much the same way as any other org conflict. Targeting an entire order may seem unfair, but the same sort of thing happens to cities, communes, and guilds all the time.

Now, clans I can maybe agree should not be targetable. Are we the Hatfields and McCoys? Family feuds is about the only reason I can think of to legitimately target a clan. Ferreting out spy-type clans through totems and statues is rather unfair.


P.S. You fail at polls, Ild! Next time, make it so you can only choose Yes OR No and not both, eh?

I would agree with Zarquan here. Orders are real and substantial. I would like seeing clan perms limited to just manses, though.

I don't understand why someone who is trying to be sneaky and a spy cannot figure out ways to get around the mechanics in place to detect undesirables. This in itself seems part of the RP of that role. You have to avoid detection. What "RP" means does someone have to ferret out if someone is spying on them? Players can't see letters that are sent, messages that are sent, tells that are sent. A good spy is never going to hang out with the enemy in places that are obvious.

It seems you are asking for it to be easier for players to subvert other organizations and harm them for the benefit of enemy organizations. Which is probably a lot of fun for the ones doing the harming but not all that much fun for the org getting hurt. If a player wants to try to harm an entire other organization, figuring out how to get around totems and statues seems the least they can do.

Catarin makes another good point. Hiding yourself in the game is way, way easy. If you had limited inventory slots, items couldn't be destroyed in the nexus, messages couldn't be sent from player to player, skills to eavesdrop on tells were available (even if costly and rare), and letters could be intercepted and had to be left around for the sake of inventory slots, spycraft would be more interesting. Instead, what you do is dodge totems. Deal with it.

Why does everyone assume I am speaking of this for spies? Did I say this would be for spyies? If I did, sorry spy rp is very simple to do.


Being a spy is easy, you don't need statues/totems untuned to orders for being a spy.

RPing an order member, who happens to live outside of the divine's org does not exist. Yes you can have loyalists, sympathizers, etc, etc. But not order members. What I am proposing is more of allowing order members to certain divines to actually exist in secret outside of the divine's main territory. They would all in all be upstanding members of their orgs, but if a war broke out between their order and another, they would be on the side of their order.

I just think too many people are too used to using statues/totems as ways to identify if you truly left an order. That along with gods checking in on people to let orgs know.


@Iasmos: yeah I know Shuyin said I failed at it too, I am a noob to making posts contain votes or something like that.

Getting beyond the mechanics is fairly easy as long as you are dealing with mortals. But as far as I am aware of the only method to prevent a divine from hearing you is by talking on an other's order channel. And lets face it, anyone high places in Celest that tries to spy for Morgfyre is going to be found out by Terentia. (and the reverse). I used to joke that doing bad cybersex for a quarter of an hour was the only way to make sure no god was listening in, but it is not far from the truth. Gods do not even respect areas with privacy gems.

In that way it would be nice to have access to that order channel without becoming detecteable by simple things like statues, manses, store