What exactly do you mean by things like "remain competitive"? Most of the ideas people like Shuyin have laid out aren't for things like competing with other ascendants, or really with anyone. It's not about solo combat or domoth-gaining (main change we need to see there is to bring people up to the level of warriors) or anything like that. It's about wanting stuff that's useable and useful for, perhaps, group combat, or utility or something. I'm pretty sure it can't be a "must-have" unless they're so overpowered that an org is going to lose massively without access to that power on their side too, at which point an ascendant will feel obligated to have it - but even aegis as it stands isn't at that level, though it's really nice and I won't mind bashing up for it. None of the ideas suggested are in that kind of category. If they were, rather than throwing the whole idea out it seems like it'd be better to bring it to a level where it's usable but not necessary for an org to have.

Why not make a trans skill similar to lich. They can set up a def, for less essence than it costs to die, so they will just reform faster.

Most aren't, but some are. There was one in particular I commented on, which you felt absolutely needed to be upgrade. Remember Consumption, the skill you agreed should be upgraded to have a significant effect in combat against people who possess essence?

That doesn't affect combat actually, it just affects what happens after they're dead. It's not about competing.

That said, I'm not exactly hot on that idea, but the skill as it currently exists is awful and I think Shuyin was trying to preserve the flavour the admins put in ("you can leech essence from other demigods/ascendants, but you'll be more like a soulless by doing so.") Right now that's never gonna come up though.

@Tervic:Stick to the person, the only thing getting transferred is damage.

It affects combat just like increasing the loss people incur in experience affects combat. In this case, it would also have the added effect of boosting the gain from pvp kills Ascendants receive. As much as people have argued over experience loss here on these forums and how it effects people's willingness to participate in combat, I would think you would see that making Consumption do more than what it already does should not even be considered.

Ok, I can understand that - though it's a different thing to being required to compete. Maybe there's something else it could do that isn't directly related to demigod-only death penalties that preserves the flavour.

The more useful something is, the more important it becomes to have it if you have access to it. Something does not have to be riddled with OP skills to be must have. The consumption suggestion alone would be pretty close to pushing towards must have. An Ascendant who gets no essence from killing demigods/ascendants is at a disadvantage to Ascendants who do. Portals that last 3-5 minutes that you can send to anyone for 20k essence? I'm not sure what kind of planar restrictions are on this but even only useable on the same plane is extremely nice.

And it probably goes without saying that making cults independent of orders, and thus much more likely and prolific, immediately boosts the usefulness of the entire skillset to another level. It's hard to say how something like presence can help tip the scales in a revolt but it seems likely that it can if it can boost charisma levels above what is available to anyone not in a cult. Having an Ascendant instantly appear in a room with a cult member from anywhere is very handy both in fights and for rapid transportation. In wildnodes? Just uprooted a node? Intervention back to your loyal cult member. Yeah, I can see freestanding cults moving things into the realms of must haves.

I don't have suggestions for it as the skillset looks fine to me for what I think it is. A flavor skillset with minor utility. It costs a great deal of essence but no one has to invest in it if they have no use for it.

EDIT: And to be honest, if we are going towards skillsets that are universally useful with transcendent skills completely worth the price of admission, I would much rather admin time and focus went into guild/common skillsets instead of a skillset that only currently has 4 active people who can access it. High magic anyone?

Environment anyone?

So... since I haven't heard anything more concerning my question, I really have to ask.

It looks like you're seeing Cults as a "status symbol" for a Divine Order. A way of saying, "Look at what I've got!" If this is the case, I would like to ask that cults just be completely removed from the Ascendant skillset and made part of just being an Ascendant. I don't believe you understand just how *frustrating* it is to spend two real life months hunting, just to learn a number of things that I *cannot* use without metagaming... and to be told that I am expected to metagame. Please. I really would like to know why they are or should be tied to Divine Orders beyond that reason, because the reasons against it seem so much more apparent.

I gotta agree with Xenthos about changing or removing cults, I was really looking forward to when Shuji finally got his cult, had plans for it and everything, but I dont really want to be forced to leave an Order just to join another for a Cult. Cults always seemed like a personal following of a Ascendant, small in number, not really that important, the only reason I can see to need the cult leader to be in an order is to make sure they do it properly, but I see no reason for the cultists to have to be of the same order.

Are you asking for design or roleplay rationale? I don't know the design rationale, but it is in any case moot as the decision is not subject to change. As far as roleplay rationale, it probably goes something like this:

Ascendance is a measure of the ascendant's mastery of his latent powers. As the ascendant grows more powerful in ascendance, he learns new ways in which his power may be manifested. Cults, and the powers they are a vehicle for, are complex and difficult - mastery of them is not innate in any ascendant and must be learned.

Cults are, by definition, a mixture of the powers of the ascendant with the powers of true gods. Orders are a mark of divinity, and no ascendant can form one (blame Ayridion). However, through a catastrophic expenditure of essence (on both sides), a god can imbue an ascendant who worships him with the power to open his own 'cult' within the order. What you then do with that is up to you and your god: I think I'd be thinking something vaguely analagous to the cult of the virgin mary - i.e. cult members venerate their ascendant, but do so as a means or mirror to me.

No one expects you to metagame. If you prefer to be patient, you can wait until new gods join glomdoring or old gods are revived. Alternately, roleplay your way into Nocht's order. However intransigent your character may be, I'm a firm believer in roleplay being sufficient to justify almost any character decision, if sufficiently planned and plotted out.

Reading between the lines, I wonder if you expected the trans skill to allow you to form a cult unilaterally? It would have been a reasonable thing to expect, and I extent my heartfelt sympathy if you did. I'd be pissed too.

Roleplay is able to justify almost any character decision, yes, but on an OOC level the primary reason I would have for seeking out Nocht's order is the ability to create a cult. There is really no way around that. Same with Sojiro seeking out Lisaera. Not because we have any real desire or drive to help out the Order, but simply for the cult-- which may or may not be metagaming, but it definitely feels like such to me.

I mean, we've both been working at this for two+ real life months now. We've both gained a significant number of abilities that require having a Cult, but we cannot even use them without playing gods in our Pantheon for fools. It was a huge investment of time on both our parts.

Yes, I was somewhat hopeful that there would be something that would affect the formation of cults. Remember that around the time I was raised, we still believed Cults would be separate from Divine Orders as that was the initial vision for the things. When we got it, there were concerns posted about it then, and we were told to wait until Ascendance had been mastered, because there was more coming. So... months later, it's mastered, and we're still right where we were. Worse off, even, in that now there's even more that cannot really be used.

It just... doesn't seem beneficial to me to have it designed this way. So, yes, I am asking mostly for design rationale, as the roleplay one is mutable.

Either way, since that seems to be fixed we're probably better off thinking about how some of the non-cult useless abilities can be helped.

It was known that cults were tied to orders when people first started learning ascendancy. Far before anyone had invested 120 million essence into the skillset. There were comments from both Xenthos and Sojiro at the time that it was a bummer that cults worked the way they did. I am confused as to why now there is this outrage over it? Is it because Ascendancy has more cult based abilities than expected?

It would have been nice if the admin had released a listing of the skills in the skillset. What seems to be the case is not that there is anything particularly wrong with the skillset but that the early adopters of it feel cheated because it is not personally useful to them without changes in their gameplay. They took a big gamble with 120 million essence and they lost. So they're annoyed. It's understandable and regretable but ultimately not a reason to make the skillset more useful than it is. If anything, the essence cost for it should be halved to make it more in line with what is received for that essence investment and the early adopters refunded their investment above the new requirement.

I think you're probably right - metagaming's a pretty good word for that. There's also the very real hurdle that a god may be unwilling to spend that much essence and risk that much for anything less than one of his most fervent worshippers.

But even if the other pansies in the pantheon couldn't justify it, Fain could. The mercenary ascendant would be doing something akin to selling his soul to the devil, but Fain isn't worried about loyalty so long as he has servitude - and as the ascendant's powers would be contigent on his bond to Fain, he wouldn't need to worry about betrayal. It would be a good way to acquire a powerful ascendant and his followers, and they could do what they liked with their cults (subject to the aforementioned everlasting servitude). So, if either you or Shuyin (or both!) are interested...

Firstly, no, it is both about the quality of the skillset as well as feeling cheated that it isn't worth the effort.

Secondly, the reason why is because last time we brought up how dodgy cults looked, Morgfyre said (not in these words): I'm not changing ascendance or talking about it at all until someone transes it because they don't know what all it contains yet. Since this wasn't exactly a refutation of the complaint it seemed like, as Fain mentions, it was reasonable to think something later on might make cults more usable.

EDIT: That was to Catarin, not Fain

It's more what I said above-- we were discussing it early on in hopes of getting it re-examined, but we were told to drop it until more Ascendance had been learned. So we did.

Like I said, at this point I think I'd prefer just tearing the cult stuff out of the skillset and making it a base part of being an Ascendant. None of it is really "omg powerful," so it shouldn't unbalance much of anything. It can then be used as a Divine status symbol at leisure. There are some other ideas for other skills up above to fill in the holes (but not that attack one, it's definitely not needed). If this is an option, can easily go through and put together an AB list with suggested skills and what they do.

You are assuming that they are willing to even change any of the skills in the set though too.



Shuyin is the only one who can with Fain, and honestly.... I think Shuyin should consider it. The only ties he holds are to SW not to Lisaera, which might be a problem. But since Shuyin's only real shot or any Ascendants real shot right at even testing the Cults out and cult powers would be with Fain.... I would urge him to explore his options there.

Heh.

Well done, good sir.