Not to be sour or anything, but I'm a little worried when you say the new things won't be necessary. Constructs weren't supposed to be necessary, but now they feel just as necessary as anything else. Even something as simple as rapid transport between the planes makes a HUGE difference in how much I enjoy the game (which is a very -good- thing, by the way. Helps me keep up with the jerks who abuse their cubixes). Anything related to combat -will- become necessary, if only because any edge is an edge, and enough of an edge equals a win. I think it'd be really awesome if they had a list of crafts based almost entirely around RP artifactish things, but then it might go the way of forging and nobody would take the skill 'cause it'd all be lasting items and nobody would make money off of it unless there was some pvp or pve (Masterarmour and coal runes are really the only reasons anyone takes forging from what I can tell) benefits.

What can you say that would convince me that they indeed would not be necessary?

Actually, I'll retract my "not necessary" statement as some people may argue anything that impacts combat is necessary.

Bards would definitely have different trans skills.

Just a quick thing based on what I've come to understand from the suggestion (which I like) so far. People have argued that with the implementation of Enchantment/Alchemy for bards of all types, it's become a concern that there would even be an increased separation between cities and communes. As far as I can guess, things such as Cosmic's Deathsight, Window, Waterwalk, Fear, Enfeeble, Diminish, Enlarge, Sleep, and Acquisitio and Elementalism's Dig, Cleanse, Scry, Gust, Levitate, Waterbreathe, Geyser, Doorblast, Icewall, and Ignite would still remain with those types of Mages...so there would still be an amount of interaction required to attain these enchantments. And for the fear that with the Enchantment/Alchemy assimilation of the bards which would turn all the organizations into carbon copies of one another...again, I worry for the identity of that organization if losing Enchantment and Alchemy as tradeskills would mean that the roleplay of that organization turns to dust. Oh, and lastly, for the folk looking for the need to be present before such a change is implemented, there's 1) Nejii's response to look at, and 2) If need is the only reason new things are ever implemented into the game, then why do we have things such as Teleport Nexus and various resurrection skills when walking and praying for salvation would suffice? They're there for convenience, and I don't see how this would not apply to this situation as well.

as I'm on a $0.75 a minute I'll just ask without reading the thread.

Will these horns/etc/etc be designable/craftable by artisans or will they be purely made through the new skill spec?

(hai from new caledonia)

^I'd love to be able to design some of my own stuff even if just the music boxes, plz.

Of course they will be designed and crafted by artisans!

I approve!!

On that note though, is there any consideration of integrating other tradeskills too? I imagine the teas and stuff would be made by chefs...but any similar considerations for the other design tradeskills?

Hooray for any means to make design trade skills more needed!

I would add something more. If you make them their own skillset, do not make them work on alembics or pentagrams. Maybe something entirely on their own.

Also, it would be nice if you could have a MagicalItemConstruction base tradeskill that specializes in MagicalChemicalBrews and MagicalEnchantingStuff. Both for Low and High Magic respectively.

And think of us monks too!

Wait, what? I thought we were talking about a bard-only tradeskill. What hand does the bard have in its creation if the artisan designs and crafts it?

My understanding, Nejii, is it works like this (I could be completely wrong, but I do not believe so):

Zalandrus can design and make music boxes, much like jewelers do, well, jewelry.

These music boxes can then be enchanted by bard enchanters to play the Song of XYZ.

My understanding is also that instruments (like horns and whatever else is decided to be enchant-able instruments) would likewise be crafted by artisans.

So basically, Artisans are to Bard Enchanters as Jewelers are to Mage/Guardian enchanters.

Ohhhhhhhhh. Ok, that makes much more sense, thanks.

Don't really like this idea. It waters down the uniqueness of alchemy to communes and enchantment to cities, while doing very little to improve the chances of cities and communes wanting to risk pissing off both sources of the other trade. Would communes be willing to fight both cities if they didn't think they could get cleanse enchantments anymore? I doubt it. Would cities fight communes if they couldn't get half the cures anymore? I doubt it.

It really depends what this idea is supposed to accomplish. If its to make it so cities and communes will fight each other, just give bards enchants and alchemy as they are, and give up on the uniqueness of the trades to cities or communes (I prefer this idea). If the goal is to give bards something fun and new, just make a new trade skill completely seperate from alchemy and enchantment and give them that.

This is my main concern too.

From my understanding of what Estarra means, communes will still need city enchanters (elemental and cosmic), and cannot rely just on bard enchanters. Also, the alchemists would be less for making curatives (and I think she said unable to make any purgatives), and more for making fun stuff like tea (although, I don't understand why cooks can't just do that?)

I'm for it because, let's face it, bard guilds are sorely lacking (at least the Cantors is), and a boost in players for them would probably help.

I'm peeved because I just switched from cantors, so I won't be able to test any of these out. >: ( boo.

I still object to the term 'tea' while cooks still have AB COOKING, which says we can (but can't) make tea. Tonic and poultice, please!

I agree, cooks should be able to make tea and juice. Not just booze!

I dunno...it seems to me like giving another another archetype access to standard big-sellers like health elixirs and mercy enchants would discourage people from picking the design trades that make items in Lusternia so cool. I think the number of alchemists and enchanters currently is adequate...and making an organization completely self-sufficient might make some tend toward xenophobia, which is never as fun in practice as it sounds, from my understanding of how Glom was a year or two ago.

I think it'd be better if Bards just got a catch-all tradeskill that let them infuse teas and wind instruments with their bardy goodness, call it Infusion or whatever. I do like where this is all headed, especially the Cooking aspect. I'm picturing alcohol that gives a decent buff to health or mana, at the obvious cost of drunkenness....oooh, or coffee that could gradually cure tiredness with each sip (and maybe make one crash after half an hour or so).

Some things, even aimed at combat arent necessarily required. Con platters are nice, but if you have +2 buff, +4, etc then you wont have use for it.. I could get use of it and I often dont get them just because its not needed, its a minor boost. Many more times over is dex kabobs. Sulfur and to some extent salt arent 'required' but are available.

The best way, in my opinion at least, to make a new trade skill without being combat required is to make things that can be done without, wont change the tide of a conflict, and dont replace a current thing (if I can play a music box to get health back, then its a requirement like sparkleberry and healing scrolls are). If its something like improved (non village?) influence then you could make do without it while influencers would enjoy it. Combat applicable items could be things like having a level of regeneration or reducing all levels of regeneration by 1 level. Maybe a costly and limited (costly, uses alot of power, but doesnt last long?) box that acted like distort in a room. A box that could shatter serpent, trueheal, pentagram, and circle on a tic might not be so bad either.

I could live without a way to POSSIBLY kill a serpent shield on a tic, and I could live without a way to reduce regens (including my own). I could not forgo another way to keep my health up for no real cost.

EDIT: Try to give a way for bards to customize them maybe too? Maybe the exact song it plays can be set, lyrics wise that is. Only the bard may assign the lyrics, and only when enchanting?

Alright, so enough with the reasons why we should or shouldn't have these things, now what to do with them?

Ideas for music boxes:
When opened, allies/city or commune members gain regeneration +1
" "" SLIGHTLY faster balance/equil ((Music tends to make me work faster/better))
Enemies start being more Hungry/Tired, tics every so often
Allies hit more/Enemies hit less often
Longer Bardic songs.
Sips randomly are not used when a vial is sipped.
((Inspired by Star Ocean 2's Orchestra skill)) If you re using your trade skill, the proficiency is a bit higher. By this, I mean, a piece of jewelry might last a BIT longer, food is preserved a bit more/feeds you a bit more, enchantments take less power from you/powerstone, and so on. A BIT OP, possibly, but with tweaking, it might work.
Pets do slightly more damage
Creatures aren't aggro towards you.
Don't get moved around on Water/Earth.
Trans skills: When open, gain 5% more EXP for those in your area

Teas:
Plus 1 to random stat for some time(Like Fortuna, I guess)
Ignore next poison.
No hunger for a while, but slightly slower balance.
Ignore poison gas for a time.

Teas for cooks, please. Let bards be able to infuse them, but give cooks teas to brew!