QUOTE(Karnagan @ Jun 27 2008, 01:16 PM) 526687
Thank you, Thul. I should suggest that Ryleth give his roleclaim now: if there is a vigilante out there, he probably has Ryleth under the gun for later tonight.
Seriously. Yes or no question, here. Are you a vigilante? Just go ahead and say it. The hinting is getting irritating.
Now.. where has Visaeris disappeared to?
Ok, just to address some issues before I go take a nap. Boy you guys sure got roped in by Karnagan's nonsense.
I'm looking at his posts and I see this pattern of absolutely inane claims and completely wrong arguments. For example,
What? I've never ever claimed that the person is from another realm. I think it is likely that they are Lusternian, given that the judgement message is unique(?) to Lusternia. My position has simply been that we cannot demonstrate beyond a doubt that it's a realm game. It probably is, and there's a 60-70% chance, but I will not operate on the sole basis of a 60-70% chance when we're dealing with extremely important lynch votes.
In any case, you people have seen my play style. I don't jump to assumptions, and while there is a pattern of Lusternia vs Else, the amount of datapoints is inconsistent to make a definitive conclusion. Ergo, I have repeatedly cautioned against assuming anything. I'm inclined to think that it probably is Lusternia vs Else, but I won't go so far as to leap to using that as my sole argumentation for who's doing what.
You know what's exceedingly interesting about this point? It's a lovely piece of backwards looking voting. I voted against the Angel vote before there was any evidence that hinted at a Celestine/Paladin. The fact that Xavius also voted against it is an irrelevant coincidence. I voted against it because doublevotes :censor: things up(see: Xavius' game) and that was the only way I read the envoy proposal. There was no Celestine kill message night 0, so how was I supposed to know?
Again- why is Visaeris trying to cast doubt on the Lusternian? Because he's scum and wants to make sure we lose. I'd feel a little better about this if his interests hadn't previously intersected with Xavius', who we definitely know was Mafia.Or because I don't make logical jumps. You know, one of the two.
Sure, she is suspicious, but just because I haven't downed the koolaid and jumped at her throat and have, instead, asked a simple question, I must be mafia.. right?
I've never, that I can recall, said that it's a Celestine SK, I've simply said it could be a Celestine SK. It could be a Vigilante. I don't feel there's sufficient evidence to make a conclusion either way at this point.
What I see is Karnagan pedaling some excellent hogwash, but no one really questioning it. He's making these arguments that I'm claiming the judger is from another realm, or the judger is an SK. The first is completely wrong, and the second is.. well completely wrong. My position this whole time has simply been that we cannot afford to leap to assuming anything because Shamarah is devious and assumptions get people killed.
I'm especially disappointed in people like Xenthos who fell sway to the fallacies Karnagan's pedalling. His particular brand is, I believe, known as affirming the consequent. Let me illustrate:
People who vote against our side are on the enemy side
Day 1 Visaeris voted against Angels
A Lusternian with an angel is on our side(an assumption, but we'll run with it)
Day 2 we learn that there's likely a Lusternian with an Angel on our side
THEREFORE Visaeris is on the enemy side.
The fact that I voted wrong in hindsight does not make me an enemy.
Not exactly a rocksolid proof but I've been up since 3am and I only got an hour of sleep. Plus some old doctor handled my junk and checked out my anus :<
In any case!
This post is dragging on, so I'll cut to the chase. I believe that a lot of the votes against me wouldn't have been lodged had I been able to actually refute the accusations in real time, and my absence worked against me.
As such, I'm not going to roleclaim just yet. I'm going to ask that people hold off on the lynching and digest my counterpoints and if there's still a belief that I have not sufficiently defended myself, I'll go ahead and cough up the pretty skillsets.
Sound good?
I'm looking at his posts and I see this pattern of absolutely inane claims and completely wrong arguments. For example,
QUOTE(Karnagan @ Jun 27 2008, 10:06 AM) 526667
Man o man. Like Visaeris, you seem invested in the concept that the dude who threw out a judgement is from another realm. As I've said earlier: it's entirely plausible that there might be a second scum faction. But I still say that we should be regarding the Celestian as one of our own- not denying the dude assistance like Visaeris would have us do.
What? I've never ever claimed that the person is from another realm. I think it is likely that they are Lusternian, given that the judgement message is unique(?) to Lusternia. My position has simply been that we cannot demonstrate beyond a doubt that it's a realm game. It probably is, and there's a 60-70% chance, but I will not operate on the sole basis of a 60-70% chance when we're dealing with extremely important lynch votes.
In any case, you people have seen my play style. I don't jump to assumptions, and while there is a pattern of Lusternia vs Else, the amount of datapoints is inconsistent to make a definitive conclusion. Ergo, I have repeatedly cautioned against assuming anything. I'm inclined to think that it probably is Lusternia vs Else, but I won't go so far as to leap to using that as my sole argumentation for who's doing what.
QUOTE(Karnagan @ Jun 26 2008, 06:29 PM) 526467
Like I said. Visaeris blocked the angel vote. Now it becomes clear that the scum very much wanted this to happen, as there's a vigilante out there who is on our side. As scum, Visaeris also wants us to not protect the Celestine- why? Because that killer is going to attack anyone who seems scummy, and certainly will if they have Investigate powers, or can talk with someone who has those powers.
You know what's exceedingly interesting about this point? It's a lovely piece of backwards looking voting. I voted against the Angel vote before there was any evidence that hinted at a Celestine/Paladin. The fact that Xavius also voted against it is an irrelevant coincidence. I voted against it because doublevotes :censor: things up(see: Xavius' game) and that was the only way I read the envoy proposal. There was no Celestine kill message night 0, so how was I supposed to know?
QUOTE
Again- why is Visaeris trying to cast doubt on the Lusternian? Because he's scum and wants to make sure we lose. I'd feel a little better about this if his interests hadn't previously intersected with Xavius', who we definitely know was Mafia.
QUOTE
I'm telling you- if Visaeris is REALLY looking for a chance that someone could be a Mafia, as opposed to the idea that we need to find and kill a townie, she's suspicious. Heck, she was one of the first people to jump on the anti-angel train. And now it's quite clear that the man with the angel is going to be saving our lives as a town.
Sure, she is suspicious, but just because I haven't downed the koolaid and jumped at her throat and have, instead, asked a simple question, I must be mafia.. right?
QUOTE(Furien @ Jun 26 2008, 06:58 PM) 526489
On that part, agreed. Also suspicious, now, of Vis talking about the Celestine SK who likely never was an SK and is actually a Vigilante, which we need.
I've never, that I can recall, said that it's a Celestine SK, I've simply said it could be a Celestine SK. It could be a Vigilante. I don't feel there's sufficient evidence to make a conclusion either way at this point.
What I see is Karnagan pedaling some excellent hogwash, but no one really questioning it. He's making these arguments that I'm claiming the judger is from another realm, or the judger is an SK. The first is completely wrong, and the second is.. well completely wrong. My position this whole time has simply been that we cannot afford to leap to assuming anything because Shamarah is devious and assumptions get people killed.
I'm especially disappointed in people like Xenthos who fell sway to the fallacies Karnagan's pedalling. His particular brand is, I believe, known as affirming the consequent. Let me illustrate:
People who vote against our side are on the enemy side
Day 1 Visaeris voted against Angels
A Lusternian with an angel is on our side(an assumption, but we'll run with it)
Day 2 we learn that there's likely a Lusternian with an Angel on our side
THEREFORE Visaeris is on the enemy side.
The fact that I voted wrong in hindsight does not make me an enemy.
Not exactly a rocksolid proof but I've been up since 3am and I only got an hour of sleep. Plus some old doctor handled my junk and checked out my anus :<
In any case!
This post is dragging on, so I'll cut to the chase. I believe that a lot of the votes against me wouldn't have been lodged had I been able to actually refute the accusations in real time, and my absence worked against me.
As such, I'm not going to roleclaim just yet. I'm going to ask that people hold off on the lynching and digest my counterpoints and if there's still a belief that I have not sufficiently defended myself, I'll go ahead and cough up the pretty skillsets.
Sound good?
Your points are singularly unimpressive. They just kinda flirt around things, point and yell at Karnagan, and refer to logical fallacies which should damn your own assertions thrice over. I want a roleclaim. That was 
.
We know you can give us a song and dance. We've seen it before. We're not interested. Give us something of substance. We're not giving you time to make up a false roleclaim.
.We know you can give us a song and dance. We've seen it before. We're not interested. Give us something of substance. We're not giving you time to make up a false roleclaim.
QUOTE(Hazar @ Jun 27 2008, 02:15 PM) 526725
Your points are singularly unimpressive. They just kinda flirt around things, point and yell at Karnagan, and refer to logical fallacies which should damn your own assertions thrice over. I want a roleclaim. That was .
We know you can give us a song and dance. We've seen it before. We're not interested. Give us something of substance. We're not giving you time to make up a false roleclaim.
.We know you can give us a song and dance. We've seen it before. We're not interested. Give us something of substance. We're not giving you time to make up a false roleclaim.
Really? That's funny, because his posts are simply flirting around things and yelling at Karnagan.
Did you even read my post? The part where I talk about how his whole argument is think of the angels while ignoring the fact that the angel vote came before there was any evidence suggesting a Celestine?
