Domoths

by Unknown

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Revan2008-06-25 18:16:45
way to forget me, Xenthos sad.gif
Xenthos2008-06-25 18:19:11
QUOTE(Revan @ Jun 25 2008, 02:16 PM) 525922
way to forget me, Xenthos sad.gif

Ah, yes. The AetherChild Demi. Welcome.
Geb2008-06-25 18:27:30
I agree with most of the sentiment here about Domoths, but since I do have the power to control whether I participate or not, I do not feel the need to complain about them. I personally don't feel Domoths are needed at all, though I will take advantage of the buffs when they are in-effect. Still, since I find Domoths utterly boring and too time consuming, I choose to only aid others in holding them, instead of seeking to hold any myself. So again while as I agree that Domoths are not particularly fun to participate in, I do not really agree that they need to be changed besides making them a bit more open to other classes besides warriors.
Gregori2008-06-25 18:37:30
This is a prime example of players being made to think Domoths are not optional.

QUOTE

SERENWILDE NEWS #2983
Date: 5/31/2008 at 23:10
From: Regent Kinson Talnara
To : Everyone
Subj: Vernal

Hello Serenwilde,

Good news! We have over two million power stored up. So, those of you
old
enough to remember, you know what that means! For those of you too
young, or
forgetful, it is time for a second Vernal Ascendant.

We want more of those Domoth blessings! The person raised up will be a
great help to our group of people, Shuyin, Rika, Xiel, Nejii, Accalia,
and any
other Demigods or Ascendants who help us with Domoths! Apologies if I
missed anyone.


Notice the Vernal election is not about raising up the person who best reflects Serenwilde, who has proven to be loyal and hard working, who has done anything at all to foster culture or unity in the Commune. It is purely about "we want more of those Domoth Blessings" and may the most useful fighter win!

And that is exactly what the election for VA came down to... a choice between someone who deserves it for more than just being a useful fighter over someone with a meld so that Seren has a demesne holder in Domoths.
Xenthos2008-06-25 18:39:23
QUOTE(Gregori @ Jun 25 2008, 02:37 PM) 525935
This is a prime example of players being made to think Domoths are not optional.
Notice the Vernal election is not about raising up the person who best reflects Serenwilde, who has proven to be loyal and hard working, who has done anything at all to foster culture or unity in the Commune. It is purely about "we want more of those Domoth Blessings" and may the most useful fighter win!

That's pretty much what just happened with our second VA elections, as well.
Revan2008-06-25 18:40:32
And you guys wonder why Mag's taking so long
Geb2008-06-25 18:53:15
QUOTE(Gregori @ Jun 25 2008, 07:37 PM) 525935
This is a prime example of players being made to think Domoths are not optional.
Notice the Vernal election is not about raising up the person who best reflects Serenwilde, who has proven to be loyal and hard working, who has done anything at all to foster culture or unity in the Commune. It is purely about "we want more of those Domoth Blessings" and may the most useful fighter win!

And that is exactly what the election for VA came down to... a choice between someone who deserves it for more than just being a useful fighter over someone with a meld so that Seren has a demesne holder in Domoths.


That's one player giving the impression that domoths are not optional. The players are making that choice for themselves, so the solution is also a player solution in my opinion.
Gregori2008-06-25 19:01:05
QUOTE(geb @ Jun 25 2008, 12:53 PM) 525945
That's one player giving the impression that domoths are not optional. The players are making that choice for themselves, so the solution is also a player solution in my opinion.


Players are impressionable people. When all they see is Domoth this and Domoth that, and one of the highest honours in a city/commune being reduced to who can best help in Domoths it pushes the belief that this is not an optional area of the game. Perception is everything and perception currently is that Domoths are something you either get involved in or are not helping out your org enough and in the case of VA you either help in Domoths or you don't deserve to be one.

I agree though it is a player choice, it is just one of those peer pressure choices. You either feel guilty for not helping, or you help but end up not enjoying it because you feel obligated to do it.
Malicia2008-06-25 19:06:16
QUOTE(Gregori @ Jun 25 2008, 02:01 PM) 525950
Players are impressionable people. When all they see is Domoth this and Domoth that, and one of the highest honours in a city/commune being reduced to who can best help in Domoths it pushes the belief that this is not an optional area of the game. Perception is everything and perception currently is that Domoths are something you either get involved in or are not helping out your org enough and in the case of VA you either help in Domoths or you don't deserve to be one.

I agree though it is a player choice, it is just one of those peer pressure choices. You either feel guilty for not helping, or you help but end up not enjoying it because you feel obligated to do it.
Agreed. The pressure is always there to perform. Doesn't feel optional. Also, with it costing a million power, you're going to feel obligated to perform. Always. And no one is going to waste a million power on someone who can't step up. It's as if your org has bought and paid for you, in full. Forever. My char can never leave Celest. Neither can Desitrus. We can, but - that would be a huge huge slap in Celest's face. No matrix knight for mee.
Xenthos2008-06-25 19:09:20
QUOTE(Malicia @ Jun 25 2008, 03:06 PM) 525954
Agreed. The pressure is always there to perform. Doesn't feel optional. Also, with it costing a million power, you're going to feel obligated to perform. Always. And no one is going to waste a million power on someone who can't step up. It's as if your org has bought and paid for you, in full. Forever. My char can never leave Celest. Neither can Desitrus. We can, but - that would be a huge huge slap in Celest's face. No matrix knight for mee.

I'm a slave! crying.gif
Malicia2008-06-25 19:11:53
Yep! *whip*
Gwylifar2008-06-25 19:12:09
QUOTE(Gregori @ Jun 25 2008, 02:37 PM) 525935
And that is exactly what the election for VA came down to... a choice between someone who deserves it for more than just being a useful fighter over someone with a meld so that Seren has a demesne holder in Domoths.

I agree that it should be about who's a better representative of what Serenwilde stands for. I just don't agree that if it did, the decision would go towards the person who's always been vocally proud of not caring what everyone else thinks when they're not in agreement with her, and thinks that's what "zealot" means. Maybe this is an easier choice than you think after all.

Edit: on second thought, maybe not caring what Serenwilde thinks is the ideal way to represent Serenwilde... wink.gif
Geb2008-06-25 19:20:03
I agree that many players are impressionable or easily pressured by others. Still all of it is a choice on the part of the player. The ones who were raised to VA could have refused the position, though I do agree that acceptance of the position does lock the person into certain responsibilities and expectations. Those who are already demigods can choose not to participate or participate on their own terms (I choose the latter). After all, this is just a game not real life decisions. Though people may not desire to let their online friends and acquaintances down, they still have the power to choose whether their enjoyment should suffer because others desire buffs; buffs I might add that are not really a necessity to do well in the game.
Unknown2008-06-25 19:36:49
QUOTE(geb @ Jun 25 2008, 12:20 PM) 525965
I agree that many players are impressionable or easily pressured by others. Still all of it is a choice on the part of the player. The ones who were raised to VA could have refused the position, though I do agree that acceptance of the position does lock the person into certain responsibilities and expectations. Those who are already demigods can choose not to participate or participate on their own terms (I choose the latter). After all, this is just a game not real life decisions. Though people may not desire to let their online friends and acquaintances down, they still have the power to choose whether their enjoyment should suffer because others desire buffs; buffs I might add that are not really a necessity to do well in the game.


I think everyone understands that we can choose to do whatever we want. I think it is fair to look at what kinds of incentives certain actions have when compared to others. If there is a huge mechanical push to do one activity over another most players are going to choose to participate even if they would rather do something else.

From an outside point of view Domoths look like something that have some very strong incentives to get players to participate. Yet they require constant upkeep to be maintained and this effort is both hard, and tedious. It is also hard to hold on to as absolving seems too easy. At the same time if you choose to not participate at all while your enemy org does you will give them an advantage in other areas of the game.

I do not think removing the power and blessings is the right idea, but I can see how people would enjoy having some of the pressure to constantly be working on them removed. There does seem to be a need to have an essence and power sink in the game though, and so if you removed too much of the incentives to participate the Domoths would never be used. That would put you right back to having no real point to power or essence.
Celina2008-06-25 19:48:55
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Jun 25 2008, 01:39 PM) 525937
That's pretty much what just happened with our second VA elections, as well.


Is there anyone that didn't know this was going to happen? Give some fighters a fast track to demi while the RPers and cultural contributers get to wallow around in obscurity.

"Who will help us win Domoths so we can raise more Vernals." It's a nasty circle.
Gwylifar2008-06-25 20:12:14
Seems a pity particularly because the domoths aren't all War, there's also Beauty, and Harmony, etc. The ascension trials give a pretty good mix of different ways to excel, but the actual domoth battles are all the same as one another, and all favor the same kinds of conflict. (Though I don't know how one would make them be different... and if developing one domoth system is hard, developing nine of them would be crazy.)

(I agreed with Visaeris last week and now I'm agreeing with Celina. What is the world coming to?)
Geb2008-06-25 20:22:51
QUOTE(Enthralled @ Jun 25 2008, 08:36 PM) 525970
I think everyone understands that we can choose to do whatever we want. I think it is fair to look at what kinds of incentives certain actions have when compared to others. If there is a huge mechanical push to do one activity over another most players are going to choose to participate even if they would rather do something else.

From an outside point of view Domoths look like something that have some very strong incentives to get players to participate. Yet they require constant upkeep to be maintained and this effort is both hard, and tedious. It is also hard to hold on to as absolving seems too easy. At the same time if you choose to not participate at all while your enemy org does you will give them an advantage in other areas of the game.

I do not think removing the power and blessings is the right idea, but I can see how people would enjoy having some of the pressure to constantly be working on them removed. There does seem to be a need to have an essence and power sink in the game though, and so if you removed too much of the incentives to participate the Domoths would never be used. That would put you right back to having no real point to power or essence.


What I am saying is take control of your own enjoyment. If you find Domoths require too much of you, then only participate in them as much as you find comfortable. Domoths give some nice buffs, but the advantage they give is not significant enough to turn the tides of battles or make it much easier for one side to win an event over another side. So, once people put it all into proper perspective, I feel it would then be easier for them to see that a lot of their angst is self-imposed.
Krellan2008-06-25 20:38:20
QUOTE(Shiri @ Jun 25 2008, 09:28 AM) 525854
I agree that domoths are much easier for warriors than everyone else, but you can actually do non-war things if you have an SF, just so you know.

And aegis is the only thing in ascendance which benefits warriors a lot more, everything else is equally useless for everyone (except affinity, which druids would appreciate more.)

EDIT: P.S the power rewards don't need to go entirely, but they could stand to be dropped to like...125/250/500, maybe?


You're also a monk. You have the ability to choose a high con/high damage race. There are no such existences for non physical classes. I made a stupid long post about this in som random combat log thread. And monks are fast. But honestly, mugwump used to be considered the best race for all equilibrium users. Now, if you are any equilibrium race as a mugwump, you will not survive crown level of any Domoth what so ever. You'll even fail several Orb levels. Equilibrium bashing is far too slow. Speed is always greater than damage. Why? Because it's the same as the more criticals argument for dual wielding warriors and monks. More speed means you get more criticals and that's what kills.

That small tidbit aside. If Absolving is so broken, there is the option of entirely scrapping the absolve system. No domoth will be absolvable. However, no Domoth would be renewable as well. Meaning, if you control the Nature Domoth, you will only be able to claim the orb once, the sceptre once and the crown once until you have lost control of the domoth. So at longest, you hold sceptre, wait it out 70 days and get Orb, wait it out, get crown, then you have to let all the days go by until you have lost control.

Obviously this would have it's good aspects and bad ones.

In regards to making Domoths unabsolvable unless the person in control is online. I really don't think this would encourage people to be offline at all. Why? because if they are offline, they won't be around to help with the other 8 domoths. It's really just that simple. The people competing in Domoths also do so because they want to fight or in other cases, gain benefits and power. Once the benefits are reduced, it will leave only those looking for a fight. In this case, they will not stay offline, or else they won't be able to look for their fights.

I do agree it would encourage those who purely go for domoth benefits to hide offline until their friends have all logged on. So, obviously, to make this work, the benefits would have to be reduced first and then this could be implemented if absolving remains as is.
Shiri2008-06-26 00:53:39
@Xenthos: To be fair, I didn't really care about the power rewards at first if you remember, and then when I noticed it was eclipsing our entire other power gain and people barely bothered going to Xion anymore, I changed my mind. So I can see why people might go "bipolar"!

@People talking about vernals: sadly Vernals are basically a promotion to demigod++, so it would end up being a "primary combatant" thing (thank goodness I got here before that phase, I like to think I'm earning it with effort). This isn't entirely a domoth thing, it's to do with what they gave Vernals in general, and I doubt it's going to change, especially with orgs now picking primary combatants for it specifically.

@Krellan: I aaactually kind of like that absolve idea, but hmmm. Not sure if it would prove fun in practice. Also, Xiel manages with illusoryself, and the average wiccan should be able to use drawdown. I think they'll be fine.

@Domoth benefits: other than the power, are they too high? I don't see how you could nerf them without everyone going "wtf was the point of that?"
Unknown2008-06-26 00:56:45
QUOTE(Celina @ Jun 25 2008, 12:48 PM) 525976
Is there anyone that didn't know this was going to happen? Give some fighters a fast track to demi while the RPers and cultural contributers get to wallow around in obscurity.

"Who will help us win Domoths so we can raise more Vernals." It's a nasty circle.
"Because a million power investment doesn't make you a better writer or roleplayer" is also a logical reason.