In the case of a forced move/group splitting skill it does. In this case I do not think it would matter.

If an ability can force you to move, or can hinder you (stun/entangle/paralyze/whatever) from range (1 room or area, does not really matter) and the only counter to it is to shield (which shuts down your offense) then that skill is overpowered in my opinion.

I can see how a group of ecologists could cause some major havoc in specific group fights, helping to break standoffs with little the defenders could do to stop it. Though the real power comes as a support skill when the two groups clash.

Chaindrag is an insta kill when used right and maintains its power both before the groups clash and after.

If a skill just does damage (like say zap) then a shield is a fine defense. It is the "hindered if you do, hindered if you don't" aspect that makes this worrisome.

(Psst. Hailstorm/Boulderblast.)

A ninjakari in the next room is not at significantly more risk than an ecologist two rooms away. They can be hit with a couple more abilities, most importantly rad which I haven't seen in a veeeeeery long time, but -they can't be hit by anything else.- A ninjakari is obviously pretty damn safe while chaindrag whoring as everyone should have seen from the fact that the chaindraggers rarely get killed from outside the room, while the people they chaindrag -in- almost always die, and no one should be trying to hide this. Akui is right, they are too similar for the ninjakari to be disingenuous about and arguing one is overpowered is arguing both are (and old HS/BB, which actually resulted in a bunch less casualties than chaindrag does during standoffs because more than one mage typically needed to connect with it.)

Familiars and chaindrag aren't even comparable, I have no idea why you are trying to drag it into this thread.

Wait. Yes I do.

Because they are comparable and people trying to attack familiars while defending chaindrag need to be called out on it so they can't preserve their overpoweredness at the expense of other people. I would say I don't know why you're trying to drag it back out of the thread but I do.

lol. They aren't comarable. It's not even a matter of what is OP and what is not. The only thing they have in common is shield stops them. Smudges hit several enemies, stun, and do damage. Chaindrag is like a single person beckon that is prevented by walls. They aren't comparable. Old boulderblast/hailstorm is kind of comparable.

If you want chaindrag nerfed, make your own thread. Don't hijack this one. This is a case of "if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me."

So if I make a thread to nerf let's say... nihilism, are you telling me that no one is allowed to bring celestialism into it at all?

They are comparable. Come on. The only things they have in common are that they are moves you can do to either damage (smudge) or instakill/force divinefire (chaindrag) people while they're not in the same room as you and thus you're not at any real risk, and both are completely preventable by shield. Which basically sums up the whole thing. Pointing out how smudges stun and do damage on 1-5 people whereas chaindrag is "only" an instakill on one person and that somehow makes it all better is not particularly convincing!

Also, my org doesn't have a monopoly on smudge like yours does on chaindrag, so I don't particularly mind if it's nerfed...whereas you clearly care if you lose a major imbalancing advantage of a very similar type!

EDIT: Heh, yes, the complaints about trueheal when lich was brought up come to mind now that you mention it Rika...

So when do Celestines get OP skills?

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Oh wait...

Tsk. I was trying my best not to mention lich and trueheal blatantly.

That would be fine since they are both guardian specific and half the skills are identical. You have vapors/Well you have darsilver. Yadda yadda.



You call chaindrag an instakill, which anyone who can read AB files can tell it's not. I've survived chaindrags in wargames. It's as much an "instakill" as empress or beckon. Sure, if you aren't paying attention or you get unlucky, you could die. That, however, can be said about a lot of things. Now, that's not to say I don't support a Commune skill like beckon (or chaindrag since you think it's God's chosen weapon) because wisp looks like it sucks.

By your logic, Staff/Cudgel should be nerfed, Demi zap should be nerfed, beckon should be nerfed, demesnes should be nerfed. They can all be used with no risk to the caster, can be prevented by shield, and can result in an "instakill." That's a lot of nerfage.

Are you Celenwilde even on forums? Trueheal was brought up when lich was mentioned and vice versa, nor am I particularly attached to chaindrag (you can't seem to distinguish between thinking something is not broken and OMG I <3 OP). Certainly didn't help us during the last Domoth did it? Stop trying to skew everything, eesh.

Yes, behold, the new CFDS: Celenwildian Forum Defence Squad.

What. Chaindrag is clearly either an instakill or close enough. If you don't have divinefire, you die to Magnadoring, period. Please tell me you're not going to try and pretend this isn't true. You only need ONE chaindrag to connect to instakill too, not like 8 cudgels or 4 staves (or 3-4 smudges, as it happens.) Either way, they're still obviously comparable, though it doesn't map as neatly as hailstorm.

Of course I'm not Celenwilde on forums, though you seem to be Magnagoran IRL, whatever that means. Trueheal -was- brought up when lich was mentioned...and despite that you're complaining that I'm bringing up chaindrag when people are trying to nerf a comparable commune skill? P.S the reason chaindrag didn't help you during the last domoth is that we were on a one-way exit and you were standing in aggro mobs that kept breaking your shield...and we had like 5 zappers. If you engaged us we would have lost, particularly if you used the chokemesne more effectively than you did (there were a bunch of choked rooms but we only went in them when Malarious kicked us into them, thank goodness for the one-way exit.)

EDIT: It probably needs to be CWFDS, CFDS is Celest-only.

Sure, we can go with that. CWFDS: CelenWilde Forum Defence Squad. Defending your Celenwilde skills est. 2008

Only reason my smudge killed people is cause they've got aggro mobs attacking them too. I can forest smudge all I want, but I won't kill anyone if they just sit and shield or even just sit since it'll take a buttload of more things than me delivering a smudge to kill a group.*


*Just to head off the OMG ohpea damage cause I know my forest smudges don't deal nearly enough damage to pull off utter decimation with my smudges alone.

To explain, it's comments like this that don't have any real justification that make you come across as very skewed. If I were so violently anti nerf about chaindrag, why would I suggest you make a thread for it OR support a similair Commune skill? That and also telling only one side of the story. The Trueheal/Lich debacle was a two way street.

Yes, I'll admit that in large group situations, getting hit by chaindrag is usually a death sentence. This is still not comparable to familiars. Chain drag has one, single use. Pre-engagement. Familiar has many. Both as support in group combat (powerful support) and pre-engagement. Their uses pre-engagement are not similair at all.

The fact you're trying to divorce the two subjects when they're so similar is telling in its own right, is what I'm saying. Let's take old lich and very very old gimped resurgem (not that resurgem has been bad in recent years) for an example. When you try to look at them seperately, resurgem isn't bad at all - most Serenguard are moon, so almost 2/3 Seren guilds have to produce 5 people and can nullify any bashing death from range. Pretty good! But when you compare it to old lich, wherein 2/3 of Magnagora can get away from any death with no experience loss, including in PK, resurgem starts to look a lot worse. Similarly, if we act like these skills aren't the same, people start crawling out of the woodwork with "you only have to shield" on chaindrag and "this is completely ridiculous, it hits everyone for tonnes of damage and huge stun" on the other...despite the fact you can shield to avoid it too. Does that make sense to you?

As for "not comparable to familiars" no one's saying it is. It's comparable to familiars dropping smudges though, which is what we're talking about. If you have an objection to some other aspect of familiars, that really -is- a topic for another thread, because I don't think chaindrag was intended to be a major flavourful part of the ninjakari skillset whereas familiars are, so the fact they have several functions between different skills isn't that impressive. A demesne looks a lot better than chaindrag too, but that's because demesnes make up several effects of a primary skillset, whereas chaindrag is one effect.

For the record, when I said "familiar" I was only referring to the smudge dropping as that was the only thing being discussed. My fault for not clarifying.

Anywho, I think we just have very different viewpoints on this subject because I'm reading over your and Xiel's posts and thinking "They are proving my point! Look how different they are"...and you are saying the same thing. I think I see your point with the resurgem/lich comparison, but those both deal directly with the same thing (XP loss). Not so with smudge drop and chaindrag.

Annnyways, start a thread! If you don't want to do a nerf chaindrag thread (we all know the flame war that will occur), maybe a "we need something better than wisp" thread cause I could get on board with that.

I think resurgem and lich are closer than smudgedrop and chaindrag, so you're at least partly right, but I just can't agree that dangerous attacks from outside of the same room that are blocked by shield are too dissimilar to compare.

I don't really know what to do about wisp actually, I have yet to experience it but I can imagine it being a HUGE pain in the arse against another commune even if it's useless against cities.

Hello everyone -

Familiar smudge has been doubled in equilibrium cost, which should slow down the problems some of you experienced.

To conclude, we highly suggest you watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG5AwGitZbs for our reasoning.