you, dear Divine, are an evil god for getting that stuck in my head.

Oh gods, not this.

ROFL

That is all.

Hey, lookit, crying on the forums DOES work.

-goes to start another thread-

Edit: Oh, hey, can smudge fashioning not be considered an aggressive action then? It's funky that I lose my shield/rebounding for tying together some herbs.

Uh.. Is it an action that will result in harm to someone else?

yes.

Therefor it is aggressive.

There are but two words that can properly encompass the adulation I wish to bestow on Charune: Mushroom Mushroom.

Uh. How about you guys stop badgering me about this.

zing

While we're talking about familiars...

Shouldn't Animal Growth be applied to a familiar now that it's actually combat-worthy? If not, what the heck is its value as a skill?

Welcome to every other skillset in Lusternia, featuring randomly useless crap like Lustration, Ablution, Spawn, Animal Growth, Hod, 80% of Environment, Concentrated, Aggressive, Various Coven Crap, etc. List is endless. Bottom line is that you can apply your last question to pretty much every skillset in the game.

Or....you can get an envoy to change it around to being something useful. -thumbsup-

And that's funky. Does inscribing Tarot cards or carving out runestones get rid of a shield and rebounding too? Just curious, since both would wind up inevitably harming someone else even though the action itself harms none?

Couldn't tell if Xiel was waxing rhetorical there, but...
inscribing runes doesn't drop shield/rebounding.

Yes, actual discussion on the forum can sometimes be productive.

Huzzah. Inscribing the rune itself doesn't hurt anyone even though all (I don't believe there's a non-aggressive rune) runes are going to be used in actual combat itself. Besides, it's making a smudge. Fear my..herb tying prowess.

What?! Sometimes nerfs are justified? Blasphemy.

Nejii tried comparing chaindrag with familiarsmudge.

Lol.

Thoros tried to make out that comparing chaindrag to familiar smudge was a bad idea, but couldn't even manage to defend this poor position as hard as Celina.

Hey, at least chaindrag can be stopped by, y'know, fighting an NPC.

They are right in that the skills have very different purposes and uses. In fact, there are only two similarities: They can be used from outside the room, and are stopped by shield.

Other skills that fit this requirement list: Rage covens, Terror covens, Zap, rune-tossing, 3 demesne effects for each guild, and so on. If you're going to compare those two skills, you really should be comparing the other ones as well.

Otherwise, actually compare it to something it's comparable to, like Hailstorm/Boulderblast (the same arguments really apply to both, whereas the arguments are actually pretty different for familiar-smudges versus anything else on the list, including chaindrag). That is not to say that chaindrag is okay, but it is NOT the same bloody thing, or any closer than covens / zap / other distance skills.

The similarities between smudges and chaindrag: that they can be used from safety out of the room, instakill people (chaindrag) or hassle them (smudges) and are blocked by shield are -critical-. Just because you asked, I will indeed bring up the others in a moment, but the point is that the countermeasures to these skills are exactly the same; and if shielding is a sufficient defence for chaindrag, it's a sufficient defence for smudge. This is pretty simple.

Zap: requires 4+ demigods to kill a person, doesn't work on people with decently high health. (Example: Me, Malicia, Rika, Shuyin and Narsrim tried to zapgank Urazial several times and failed (delay is pretty long.) Eventually got him though.)
Rage/terror: requires multiple moon users to kill a person, from outdoors to outdoors, at night. Very restricted, which is why you don't see it used much.
Rune-tossing: rad is actually pretty nuts, luckily it doesn't come up much. Others just afflict, so they could mess you up but aren't going to kill you fast enough that you can't shield (or someone could salt you.)
Demesnes? These totally aren't similar. They're used in completely different ways. Summon skills are generally used for dragging people -out- of their demesne and into your own (where you can gank them very quickly.)
Chaindrag: requires one ninjakari. That's it. Also, only exists on one side, unlike all of the above. So a single mistake or even a single unavoidable but common turn of events means you die.

I already conceded that hailstorm and boulderblast are MORE similar, but just because moonburst is more similar to minorsecond (same damage type) doesn't mean you can't compare staff and cudgel.

Chaindrag is as much an instakill as triggered ragecovens. It is not, itself, an instakill (and it's possible to tumble out of it, excepting the addition of other skills such as barrier). Keep in mind that beckon can now bypass block, as well... and beckon is also not an instakill itself. Either way requires the numbers/skills to actually damage someone afterwards... just like a Coven. Further, there are extra defenses to Chaindrag that are not available for smudges-- off-balance/off-eq/prone. Sure, they don't come up as much during a standoff and they can easily be worked around (as I argued when the thing was being put up for debate in the first place), but really. No. They are not the same skill, they do not even have the same purpose or use (as you state yourself in your very first paragraph). Zap can be used to harass, too! So can covens! And they truly are blocked only by shield.

C'mon, Nejii. I realize you dislike Chaindrag. I don't like it much myself, but this argument of yours is really a huge stretch. You're pointing out reasons why the others can't be compared to smudges while completely ignoring both Beckon and the other limitations on Chaindrag. They are not the same thing, nor is it any closer than multiple other "from another room" harassment/damage/summon skills.

The only actual comparison is Hailstorm/Boulderblast, for smudges.

I still don't get how chaindrag is any more of an instakill than beckon, wisp, or anything else that pulls you in.

This is a very confusing and pretty terrible position to take.