Gah. Stop calling it an instakill. Wrack/chasm/absolve/swoop/sacrifice/soulless/decapitate/execute/bashbrains/behead/judgement. These are instakills. Chaindrag? No.

Propoganda! Call it an instakill enough and people will start believing it.

edit: Ninja'd!

It's not a huge stretch. I can't understand why you're trying to exaggerate the differences. The only reason seems to be "they don't look similar enough." Of course they are similar enough. I keep explaining why. And we all know chaindrag and beckon are either instakills or force-divinefires in 99% of situations, even Celina admitted that one when pushed. Let's be realistic here. Smudge only hassles people. And ONE PERSON has to chaindrag, as opposed to the many needed to zap/rage (and additional reqs on that), as I explained. The scale is too different.

If you want to argue that zap/rage is overpowered, rather than just "they are on a similar scale", feel free. We can debate that on its own merits (I reckon the number of demigods you need to do it limits it enough that it's not as overpowered as chaindrag.)

Because they are not any more similar than the other skills mentioned.

Though I, on the other hand, can easily understand why you are exaggerating the differences of some skills while downplaying others-- your fixation is pretty obvious, but really now. C'mon.

Now we're going round in circles. They -are- similar. They are similar enough to qualify. Hailstorm and smudge are MORE similar. Ok. Moonburst and minorsecond are MORE similar. Also ok. Doesn't help.

Once again.

They. Are. Not. Any. More. Similar. Than. The. Other. Skills. Mentioned.

If you're going to compare some of them, then bring up the others as well, or just don't bother.

Shiri, you're more reasonable than this. Seriously. A forced movement skill is not a kill condition, and chaindrag is no more or less of a kill condition than any other directional movement skill.

(Bellator Societas): Thoros (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "That makes beckon and wisp instakills."
(Bellator Societas): Nejii (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "Correct, actually."
(Bellator Societas): Nejii (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "You either divinefire or die if you get beckoned too."
(Bellator Societas): Nejii (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "For 99% of people tumble isn't fast enough and you can't use leap."
(Bellator Societas): Geb says, "You do not always have to divinefire, but I have seen some do it depending on the size of the group. It is not a certain death if you get pulled it, but it is a good chance that you may die if the people are on the ball."
(Bellator Societas): Geb says, "No, but it is no more an insta-kill than that badger dropping smudges is one."
(Bellator Societas): Nejii (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "It is much more an instakill than the badger 'cause the badger only does 1300, the chaindrag does like 10 people's worth of damage attacks."
(Bellator Societas): You say, "You have claimed that if you are moved into a room full of enemies."
(Bellator Societas): You say, "You will die."
(Bellator Societas): Nejii (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "In 99% of situations yes."
(Bellator Societas): Geb says, "Just admit that they are not insta-kills Nejii, because they are not insta-kills."
(Bellator Societas): Geb says, "Their is a good chance you may die if you get pulled into a large group, but it does not mean that it is an insta-kill."
(Bellator Societas): Nejii (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "Almostinstakill."
(Bellator Societas): Nejii (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "Let's make a minor concession then."
(Bellator Societas): Nejii (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "Instead of being an instakill, it's soulless 7 seconds into the timer."
(Bellator Societas): Nejii (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "And you're hindered."

lollin' so hard.

Ok. I was advised by someone more experienced than I that if I keep simplifying it, people will keep trying to turn this issue around. So instead of "instakill", let's call it a substitution for "chasm 11 seconds into the timer and you're lagging." It isn't a 100% certain kill, but come on. People need to stop trying to hide from this.

Xen: by all means, YOU can bring up zap/rage if you think they matter enough. I'm not going to stop you. If you want to argue that either or both are more powered than chaindrag, bring it on.

You are arguing that zap and rage take multiple people to kill someone with, and that it only takes one with chaindrag... but uh...

You need a whole group waiting in the room you are chaindragged in, to kill a person so 'instantly'. The argument is flawed because there is still the condition of MANY people.


I won't say anything about whether the skill is good or bad, but dude, it's not one single person wasting you.

Now if you want it to be an instakill, maybe they can make it a long range wrap the chain around your head and snap your neck attack.

No, this isn't how it works. When you chaindrag, they come into your room, so your group of 15 people of ANY guild/class/whatever can damage kill them in a second or so.

When you zap, you need all 4+ of those people to be demigods. They also have to be better coordinated to zap instantly before someone sips/reshields or whatever but I think we can allow ignoring that.

Chaindrag wouldn't come up nearly so much if it required 4 ninjakari to all drag the person instantly, but it doesn't, so it does.

I'm not arguing that they are equal or more powerful than chaindrag: I am arguing that their requisites are the same as the other skills you are mentioning, and saying that if you are going to compare them, you need to compare the other skills that qualify in the category that you created as well. They are powerful in their own ways (terror coven + 2-3 man warrior squad razing and tanking is pretty darn powerful, for example).

Ok, so, to actually add to this conversation:

The first thing to remember is that certain things are more ok for certain groups than others. Forest smudge is the only one worth anything at range, so we'll just talk about forest smudge. The only comparable skills to have ever existed are hailstorm and boulderblast, and both of those, conveniently, went to an archetype similar enough to the ones who have ecology.

The problems with hailstorm and boulderblast were large scale coordinated attacks more than the individual attacks themselves. Hailstorm and boulderblast are, of course, strictly less powerful than forest smudge, but they're also substantially less avoidable--you see a coordinated smudge attack coming. So really, the question is if the restriction on smudges means it won't be an issue in the future. I think it's a valid question that could be argued either way.

I'm not going to argue about them because they are not enough of a concern to qualify. People argued that smudge is overpowered because the part where shield blocks it is insufficient, and it doesn't even kill people. If shield isn't sufficient for stopping long-range attacks that have a low chance of killing people, then shield isn't sufficient for stopping long-range attacks that have a high chance (not 100% but much higher than smudge) of killing people. If other people want to argue rage/zap they can.

That is not my point, my point is that for it to 'kill' it requires a lot of people. You keep acting like it requires one single person, and that all these other ways are ok because they require multiple people.

But it doesn't require one single person, because it isn't even close to instantly fatal without multiple people in that room. You also talked about more than just Zap regarding this, and I don't think the other quite requires Demigods either.

Basically, what I'm saying is that it is not 1 single person = instakill, it is a group just the same as those others, just in this case it involves bringing the person into the room with you instead of killing them from outside it.

I'm not saying things are perfect, just saying that your logic here is flawed.

I don't know, it seems like you ignored me here. For it to kill it requires a lot of people. It only requires one of those people to have the skill. As I said, imagine all of those people needed chaindrag. The ability of it to work would go WAY WAY down because even if you coordinated them properly (which is possible) the odds that you would have those people there often enough would also go down. Similarly, since zapgank requires a bunch of demigods to work, it doesn't happen as much as chaindrag (also it has a minor xp cost and a long-ass delay before you can try it again if you whiff, unlike chaindrag, but that's not the major reason you don't see it killing people so much.) I mean, you can see this in action? You see people die because of chaindrag all the time, but you see people die to zap much more rarely. This is why.

So, essentially, though there are a number of skills that are related in terms of requirements, you're going to compare the complained-about topic to the skill that you yourself want nerfed despite the fact that it's just as reasonable to compare it to zap (also complained about), beckon (ditto), and so on.

You can read Xavius' post above, but really, the things have entirely different uses and purposes. It is directly comparable to Hailstorm/Boulderblast, with some differences between the two (positive and negative). They are/were both room-damage-skills on enemies, from outside the room, and can/could be stacked together. The arguments against HS/BB work just as well against smudges as they were implemented (not as much so now that it's been slowed).

They're really as similar as, say, Trueheal and Lich (two different skills with entirely different purposes! And aren't we always getting told not to compare them?)

Don't worry.

Even though I missed the crazy boulderblast/hailstorm whinefest, I think it's the forests turn to have the overpowered skills.

/Sarcasm.

I agree, I'm currently in the process of asking admin to let me wane offbalance, stay tuned.

Man, you guys split a lot of hairs. This seems really simple to me.

Does the ability force "shield-whoring" from a room or more away to prevent a "very bad thing"?

If yes, then same category. Why is the ecology thing being called "bad"? Because Xiel "omigodnoaspiritsingerhasgoodabilities" Talnara made people sad by doing this with smudge. If you screwed up the shield, and had low enough health, you died. You couldn't get at Xiel to stop it, because it was group combat.

And chaindrag for all practical purposes does the same damn thing. Shield whore. If they spam their ability with impunity and it hits you while shield is down, well, you die. It's group combat, it doesn't matter if the ninjakari doesn't land a blow. You more than likely die.

All the crap about zap may as well be "what if all the druids in the game cudgled you at once? Huh? Isn't that unfair and unstoppable"? No. It's not one person effectively causing the death.

It's not about this coordination stuff, because that's harder. It is a problem when the above is possible with one person basically forcing a situation for which all you can do is shield, or (more than likely) die. From a room away. At least with ecology, it's spread among four potential guilds in two communes that oppose one another. Chain drag is just as stupid, and even more one sided.

See you keep going arguing that it isn't balanced against me, you are the one ignoring what I'm saying.

I never said anything about it being balanced, I said you keep arguing it as if it has nothing to do with the fact there is a group attacking you and acting as if these other ways are alright because it involves multiple people. This involves multiple people hitting you too, I am NOT saying this skill is perfect (though I do feel you are potentially overreacting and I have seen some solutions suggested before which might be viable against it such as throwing salt to shield each other, walls to block it, sitting. I have not dealt with it myself so I don't know precisely).

I am saying it is 'NOT' an instakill, and that it requires a group for you to even be in such danger, and I am pointing out that you are acting like one sole person is DOOM INSTAKILL OH NO, but hey these are ok in comparison because they require multiple people. I am basically telling you, you are arguing this in a totally horrible manner by seeming to act like the group has nothing to do with it. I do see that you make mentions of the group being the part to kill you, but you are playing that down majorly and basically outright saying Chaindrag = instakill! Nerf!

How about instead of looking solely at the one single skill and ignoring the rest, you look at the synergy you say it has with the other skills and try to find a means to alter that, so that it's use changes in group combat? The problem as far as I see here isn't the skill by itself, but how it mixes with other skills and the group. So why the hell are you aiming at the single skill, instead of aiming at the orientation of the group synergy?

Like maybe look at the situations and think of things like, maybe if a direction is being blocked by someone (in the room with the ninjakari) then chaindrag won't pass through, taking it out unless they want to remove block or thing like that. (Not that I think this idea is a good solution, just a random example).

People get so annoyed and angry about stuff like this because when a skill when mixed with a bunch of other people/skills has powerful synergy, the others go directly at the skill itself and want to nerf its usefulness even beyond the group, instead of looking at the elements of synergy themself and thinking, hmm how could we perhaps change how these skills interact to make this not so overpowered?

Personally, I really like this skill, and it irks the hell out of me cause on a level outside groups it seems perfectly fine, but just because it is effective in a group, people want to nerf it in general instead of changing the circumstances of group 'synergy' instead.



That said, I am not going to argue anymore as this is more or less off topic anyways. I've said my piece.