(Disclaimer: these are the inane ramblings of a person who has had too much time on his hands in certain parts of the last few years. I am not trying to accuse anyone of anything, and anyone who interprets it as such shall be shot, quartered and buried in the middle of the Himalayans, where Yaks shall be the only ones to bear the memory of your passing, you have been warned!)

In my several years of mudding, playing and general time-wasting, I have had ample time and opportunity to witness the various interactions that make up most of the text that comes scrolling up through the windows of Zmud and nexus. As many of you will undoubtedly be aware of, I am a great fan of social interaction and I am sure some of you will have felt the scrutiny of My all-seeing-incorporeal eye. I enjoy these interactions immensely and make an effort to seek out random people whenever I have a mind to do so.

My personal goal towards these interactions stems not only from my own enjoyment of these events however, but more so the enjoyment of the receiving party as well. The enjoyment I obtain through my interactions with others is instantly annulled when I perceive that this other party is not charmed by my presence and attention, but finds it stressing or not at all enjoyable. In these events I usually make good my hasty departure and continue to find others to pelt with meaningless questions.

When we look at the definition of the word game, as presented on dictionary.com, it quickly becomes apparent that the mutual enjoyment of an activity is not just my personal interpretation of a game, but one generally accepted:

Game – noun (other definitions omitted)
3. a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.

Most of my interactions quickly take the form of an enjoyable conversation; however, there is always the odd person who feels it is their roleplay to be unhelpful and insulting towards me. Personally I don’t mind this; I greatly enjoy asking the right questions to talk them into a circle and watch them bite themselves in the tail; call it sports. Regardless, this sort of behaviour has been prompting me to think, what if I did not enjoy such insulting behaviour, or worse, what if it made me feel stressed and unhappy?

I have not experienced any stress from players in a long time; my divine disposition makes it easy for me to depart anyone that takes things too far, however, I know only too well from my mortal days that players can be severely stressing. A lot of this is down to differences in opinion concerning roleplay and on what one might find enjoyable and what would be considered stressful. I recall one particular event from my mortal days where someone proceeded to send me anonymous illusions about me being tainted and needing to experience the power of the light; I wasn’t particularly interested in the conversation at that time (I was doing something much more enjoyable) so I kindly requested he leave me be and proceeded to ignore him. The answer for him was to kill one of my friends from a distance and continuing to preach to me about the light whenever I happened to be in the realms.

I am willing to make an assumption that almost everyone who has played muds regularly has had interactions of the sort that I have described above. I myself have experienced several more examples of various sorts that might fall into the same category. How these interactions have been experienced would depend entirely on the person in question and his or her opinions on what is considered good, acceptable or enjoyable roleplay. Many people enjoy friction and do not even appear to mind overly if they are the underdog for a while, but it is when misconceptions exist concerning this that people will get upset and in extreme cases, even quit the game.

While a certain amount of these interactions are the result of misconceptions, there is also the other extreme, where players will rumble along without any apparent concern for the enjoyment of others, the type of person generally referred to as a ‘griefer’. I have often wondered where the enjoyment of said behaviour stems from; while I personally consider the enjoyment of others to be important, they apparently do not consider this an issue. I by no means intend to open up the debate on what constitutes griefing; this leaden term seems to inspire righteous crusading from nearly all parties who take the effort to write up a response in a topic that concerns this.

Instead, let us step away from the term and look at the interactions themselves; there is a whole scale of interactions that inspire an equally diverse scale of reactions from others. While looking at the various topics of the idiots board it quickly becomes apparent that lusternia is by no means clean of turbulent interactions; the absence of name-calling remains only by grace of enforcement by the moderators. Obviously mutual enjoyment is absent in a large number of these interactions, especially so when there is an easy person to blame.

Let us, for a moment, step away from the lusternia we all have an emotional attachment to, and take a look at my personal history of mudding. Let us take a look at the past, the good old days of mudding where occultists were still real occultists and not those phoney-evil geomancers you get today, where a paladin was still a paladin and not those fake-extremist celestians that fill the realms in present times. Ahh, those were the days. (/end grandfather routine)

I recall a particular event from back in the days when magi had a virtually impregnable guildhall and a certain occultist saw the need to invade this hall (I never got the details on how exactly he got in, but this does not really matter for now). These magi, seeing their sacred ancestral home invaded, attempted to expel this invader, but being the useless fighters that we were in those days, we failed utterly and got killed again and again and again, while said occultist was shouting insults and taunts. When we eventually thought we managed to get rid of him, he used his pathfinder to return to the hall and the whole story started all over again.

During this event, I noticed that many residents of the guild eventually got so upset that they left and played something else for a while; quite an understandable sentiment under the circumstances in my opinion. These sorts of events happen often and can be quite distressing, especially when there are no capable defenders around to give this person some actual sport; resulting in an unbalanced fight where this one person gives rise to rout after rout after rout.

We all enjoy winning; it is an enjoyable experience to feel that one has bested ones peers. Victories and accomplishments give rise to appreciation from others and more stable and stronger self-esteem. One is good at something and others will look up to you for your skills in this. I can only suppose that this is an aspect of why this behaviour persists. In my turn then I ask, is winning still ‘winning’ when your opponents have absolutely no skill to speak of, or even a vague interest in combat? Any martial interaction with these people from a real warrior makes them stand no chance and makes the outcome of this encounter about as uncertain as the answer to the question which colour mask Fain will be wearing tomorrow.

Another aspect I can imagine that would make this behaviour persist is the sense of power that stems from them; when one has the ability to lay waste to entire guilds one achieves this same sense of self-esteem and power that was described in the previous paragraph. Again though, is this feeling truly justified when there is no challenge involved in doing so?

Regardless of the fact of whether or not this is really an accomplishment as earlier described, what I wonder is what it is that makes us forget that our opponents are people as well. Which part of this victory or power so conveniently allows us to forget that through our actions we are giving someone a horrible time? Being killed time and time again is not enjoyable at all, especially not if one is forced to contend with this when one has no interest in doing so; many people (myself included) play muds for other aspects of the game and have no interest in combat whatsoever. Who are we to force them into undergoing this agonising process of defeat and humiliation and then call them cowards when they log off?

Why do the common laws of society and politeness seem to disappear as soon as we go online?

These are the most extreme cases of course, and they exist in other aspects as well, aspects I see large groups engage in. The famous off-time raiding, political coupes, blackening someone’s reputation, spreading gossip. Some much lesser degrees but aspects where we forget that we are playing with people and that these people make the game what it is; without opponents, the game would be empty and hollow, devoid of purpose.

I am of course not a saint, and have at times engaged in variations of this behaviour where I simply forgot that I was giving others a bad time. I still do not quite understand how this happened, or why I engaged in this behaviour; I suppose it seemed necessary at the time though in retrospect, it fills me with little but shame at my own conduct, trying to force my own opinion of the game on others. These days I try to keep this in mind at all times, and I cannot help but feel that we could all do with an occasional reminder that we play a game and that games are played for the enjoyment of all players.

An interesting event. One would think that to prove his point this Occultist would merely have to enter the Guildhall once, say something dramatic, and then leave at his leisure, proving that he could come and go as he pleased due to the weakness of the Magi.



The most common explanation is anonymity. When someone is online, it's easier to forget that their are people involved, and thus you can be as malicious as you like without any damage to your conscience.

Then, there are some people who just enjoy causing trouble. I have a friend, name of Benjamin, who actively describes himself as a troll and enjoys little more of an evening than to sign onto an internet forum and argue with people, over anything.

Finally, we have the conflict of ideas. Some people, as you have mentioned, want to play the obnoxious types such as the extremist Celestines or persistent, greasy beggars. Their roleplaying thus requires they stress others, whom may want to just go for a quiet bash and a quick toke of cactus weed. The best one can hope for is a quick tell saying "OOC: Knock it off, please" working to get rid of them when their victim has had enough. Certainly, I would always back away if someone told me that I was stressing them overly.

(Or, in Ambersia's case yesterday, I'm quite happy to be dragged away by the ear and thrown in the river, if the situation requires it. Common courtesy requires that one attempts to make compromises with others regarding their roleplay.)

In general, I accept this premise. I think that the social group that is Lusternian players at large is a fragile one, but I also think that your perspective is inevitably shaped by your IC interactions. You chat with people on all sides of the various organisational boundaries.

I don't. I deal with Magnagora only and I have a very different experience. As a God of Hate, Evil and Death, I try my best to stir up my order into strife, backstabbing and petty-minded betrayal, and I have a very difficult time of it. In large part, Magnagora's players are very pleasant to each other: many chat OOC, either in game or out, and they all seem to get along. When it comes to trying to make them stab each other in the back there is a very clear reluctance. Partially, that's motivated by the knowledge that if you piss people off in an organisation of Magnagora's size, your actions will come back to bite you later; but partially it's motivated by a sense of communality and community.

And why is that? Well, in broad part, it’s because Lusternia is set up along strong organisational lines such that the natural mindset is ‘us’ and ‘them’. The binary nature of this relationship helps bind the ‘us’ together and prevents organisational fragmentation. In Magnagora this is expressed in terms of the Engine metaphor. Of course the same forces that bind an individual organisation together derogate a sense of sportsmanship and community between the players of different organisations.

I think another factor is the scope of the game temporally. Lusternia doesn’t stop. It’s not like playing Monopoly or Tennis, where you might finish your game, shake each other’s hands and head down to the pub for a comradely drink. There is little opportunity to step back and re-acquire a wider or neutral perspective.

All things considered, I think the playerbase is remarkably polite. Taking the forum as an example of the general attitude, we don’t have to look too far afield to find other MUDs whose flame grilled forums churn with spite and hatred – ours doesn’t. Perhaps if all the orgs made peace with each other, the atmosphere here might improve even more and I might have my backstabbing order. But then, we’d probably have no players.

Goddamnit, I had a huge-arse post written on this but IE seized up.

Just suffice it to say that negative emotions aren't necessarily a motivation for griefing - there is also a class of griefer who thinks they're simply doing what they're entitled to, and if anyone is too soft/weak-minded to deal with it it's their problem. If called out on the enthymemes these people tend to rely on the typical response is to hide behind vague ideas like "Lusternia is a conflict game" - while naturally you might agree with that position, you obviously wouldn't agree with the highly flexible premises they can reword that into, like "Lusternia is a game where participants understand and accept that they are volunteering for being killed at any time for reasons ranging from having raided 2 months ago to simply being in another org".

There is also a third class who will ostensibly concede with statements like "I'm an arsehole, deal with it" but refuse to actually internalise this and consider it something wrong, essentially turning it into a slightly-concealed "nah nah not listening". I suspect the second class is the most common though. I don't know how this relates to politics - from my observation most -internal- political conflicts are actually personality conflicts blown out of proportion with a select few counterexamples, and external politics are highly limited by game mechanics and the reliance on PK to "solve" actual interaction.

You began from the definition of the word game and ended up wondering the reasons for unpleasant behaviour of some players. I would see that they are quite relevantly bound together.

Since all the people have been imprinted by the emotional-territorial behaviour that has guaranteed the surviving of our species, it is quite natural that in this modern world of ours, we still have emotions that would suit better for a primitive tribe fighting for their lives against some wild beasts and other primitive tribes than for this so-called civilized society. We no longer seek for wars (well, most of us) to satisfy our natural need to serve as a respected member of society. Instead, we have created such acts for competitional interaction as sports and games. Those are the channels where we are allowed, and even encouraged, to put the emotional-territorial needs that we all have. If we could not do it, we would grow frustrated and anxious.

There are different kinds of games and sports. War, the real war, is perhaps the most primitive type of game and has basically no rules. The enjoyment of it lies only in the victory, nothing else matters. This is the attitude where the so-called griefers get their enjoyment. The more complicated the rules, the more 'civilized' the game is. One of the most advanced games, I think, is the art of conversational arguing, which you yourself called sports. When people don't really understand the rules of the more advanced games, they play them badly - throw insults et cetera.

I would be willing to suggest that it is a sign of our mental growth to learn to enjoy from our emotional-territorial needs in more civilized manners. When we realize that the challenge gives the true enjoyment, we no longer get so angry and frustrated when we lose either.

And of course, Lusternia has so many other aspects than just competition anyway, the fact that makes it so great a game.

I feel I need to contribute to this thread. Let me finish my coffee first though.

Edited for grammar. As you can most likely see, I very much require my cup of coffee.

We all find enjoyment in different things both online and offline. I personally enjoy encouraging conversation and engaging in my own little crafts and activities both online and offline - arts, writing, studying and whatnot. I prefer social interaction over many other things. But first and foremost, when I am online, I know I am not there alone. I never seek to intentionally deride another player and I hold myself responsible for their enjoyment to the extent of keeping a healthy environment for different types of interraction alive. Of course, we cannot be expected to be cautious of perhaps hurting someone as a player, but I would like to call for common sense. Say, when you are hunting down the same player harvesting sparkleberry on Astral for the fourth time in an OOC day, something is amiss.

There are, of course, others that get enjoyment from something else than I do, and as such I brought up the aforedescribed player-character type on many occasions referred to as the 'griefer'. Where do we draw the line of OOC harrasment? I am fairly sure that these combat-orientated 'griefers' enjoy other things in Lusternia as well, or else they would be playing WoW.

At times we all need to stop and consider - if I do this, how does it perhaps effect the other player/character/the overall atmosphere? Granted, we cannot do this all the time, but considering this once in an IG month would be a healthy practice.

-gets more coffee-

Edit: and I don't mean to undervalue combat either, I find it rather enjoyable when I don't totally suck.

I really don't worry about it. I keep OOC and IC seperate. If I don't like someone OOC, it doesn't make a bit of difference IC, and vice versa.

That has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I believe. It has to do with the fact that people tend to become, for lack of a better term, raging ****tards as soon as they get access to teh intarwebz, regardless of whether or not it's in a game.

Speaking from my point of view, I go out of my way to not cause people grief in the game. Even though my character arguably has the power to keep certain bashing grounds clear of all but the strongest players, he almost never has the inclination. Aison was a single exception because she was Princess of Celest, although it's since been democratically proven that no one likes her , and that she was in Shallach. Even then, I handed out a warning, and then didn't even have to kill her. In general, though, I don't grief people on Astral, disrupt their bashing, or even keep corpses if I have the time to go back down to Prime and drop it in the Aetherplex.

And boy howdy, do I know how hard it is in Fain's Order. As a practical matter, you don't want to grief your own Order members clear out of the game, especially as you don't have too terribly many that are active and helpful at any one time. Everyone needs everyone else at some point, and while this rapidly makes everyone nice, it also leads to a sense of softness. Which is why I try to direct people's instincts for torture and mass murder onto enemy populations, and often NPC's, but in the end there's not too much you can get out of that. Destroying a whole cadre of NPC's that will just repop in an hour? Where is the sense of accomplishment in doing that?

We don't have many problems that you see in Achaea, such as theft/ lolgriefing, and that's excellent. At the same time, at some points our population imbalance, especially in relation to Glomdoring, makes direct conflict between organizations horribly imbalanced- World of Warcraft tends to "even out" Battleground competitions by linking lots of servers together, but we can't come close to that with our population. So that can make conflict seem unbalanced to some people- the problem is, the alternative presented is usually a LACK of attacking, and that works even more poorly. I'm not sure what we can do about that.

Hmm, well this is a rather interesting topic.

As a part-time "greefer", I can say that most of the fraternity-style elitism and griefing attitude comes from a sense of competition... to show that you're better in something. Alot of people tend to do this through computer games. Starcraft is an excellent example of this type of behavior in which players exhibit an unusually large amount of competitiveness. I don't want to delve too deeply into psychology, but you also have to realize that some players "need" the game as well due to whatever social problems they may have in their real life. Some feel that if they can be great at a game and show it over and over through any medium necessary, it gives them self-worth. That's one aspect of it.

Another aspect is that they come from a boring/stressful day and just want to take outtheir frustrations on a game where no one will ever know them, and thus the real consequences of their actions are largely minimal (see Conor's thought about anonymity). This allows people over the internet to act however they want. Ever see that Dateline episode about internet pedophiles? O_o

In any case, I think the amount of control and understanding that most of Lusternia's players have is a rather huge tell as to the maturity of these people. There are some to subjugate themselves to the other spectrum, and some who hover anywhere in the middle.

I'd like to address the thread's title and say that gentlemanly behavious is not dead. It is quite strong, in fact, and although a few odd people out there will go out of there way to make people miserable, a large portion does hold onto the ideals of sportsmanship and common geniality. In Lusternia, a large part of this comes from the close-knit community feeling we get from having a smaller player-base.

I don't usually make it a point to discuss anything that requires too much thought beyond the most simple and basic of processes. My job stresses me out too much to try for anything more. However, this thread is rather fascinating.


I find, more often then not, that I'm getting called out for 'griefing' people who can't defend themselves. In my defense, and furthermore, other's defenses: If someone decides it's 'in their character' to stand up without provocation and insult someone older and stronger than they are, they should expect a good slap. Which is exactly how I respond to most youngin's as warning. A warning that should clearly say, "I will get physical if you continue to be a moron." If they can't roleplay properly, take it (Something that should hurt a slight bit) and leave, and decide to opt for insulting Somaria further, they should expect to die, as per Somaria's 'character'. Such as recently, when Tonni and Shan were sitting at the Aetherplex and Tonni decided to bring out the Le Jardin card via tells. Of course Somaria's going to act aggressively, and of course when Shan goes to defend, Somaria will kill him too. It simply irks me how after, one can cry foul play.

I never lash out at someone without reason, or without it being in Somaria's character.


As a side note, Fain's Order was most enjoyable (Though I haven't had much time in Viravain's yet.) as far as Divine/Mortal interaction as well as being literally pushed to care about one's status and ability to influence others. It's what truly gave me the drive to go for positions in guilds, etc etc, though the methods I've held with me are really... underhanded. The only issue I ever had was with Morvior, which ties back into my previous statements. Somaria used to talk back to Morvior constantly, and worse, disrespect Sthai when she really needed her. That was entirely my fault and though I'm not in the Order anylonger, looking back on it and how things are now (Especially with Emar's influence), it was learning experience and now I can deal with things more easily, both politically and otherwise.


I suppose I support the theory that you either grow up or get driven into the ground. Griefing and getting griefed are, to me, an asset to the game itself, as well as it's roleplay. I don't see much unprovoked griefing, personally.

In a world where, at times, the player is completely seperated from their character, dying, and acting in an almost godlike fashion (i.e. a slap doesn't hurt, laws of society don't apply, etc etc), what other way is there to say, "Your behavior is unacceptable."?

In regards to the main point of the thread itself, I see griefing and such as enforcing the ways of society, in it's purest form, rather than completely going against it.

After all, if you were a charming, polite, acceptable member of said commune, Order, guild, or the basin at large, what need would others have to grief? Would Atellus or Desitrus go out of there way in the Undervault to cut down a Magnagoran or Glomdoring Member if they weren't hunting Kephera (Which at the very least, Atellus is obligated to protect from a roleplay standpoint)? I honestly doubt they'd waste their time when they could be doing something more enjoyable.

Honestly, I think the door swings both ways. Yes, it's a game and therefore we should all have a modicum of decency, respect, and understanding for the other players beyond our "hardcore roleplay."

At the same time, it IS just a game. I think it's a testament to the quality of Lusternia and to the players that populate it that many of us invest so much emotionally in our characters and organizations. But we should always be able to take a step back and relax and realize that it's all just text and if we aren't having fun it's not worth it.

I personally think griefing is acceptable within limits, but I sympathize with the people it greatly frustrates. I've never been one of them, I tend to laugh when I get ganked or robbed, particularly if the griefer has a sense of humor about it. And sure I'd like my org to do well and to succeed, but there's always another shot if we lose out. As far as I'm aware I've never been a source of great friction for other people, and I would hope to never be anything but an aid to others' fun.

Keeping the game fun with sportsmanship is one mark of maturity, and being able to take ungentlemanly actions within a fictional environment with a grain a salt is another mark of maturity, I think.

I agree a little with what everyone's said. I've met some of the most interesting people here, and also some people who I think are downright scum. Everyone plays the game for their own reasons and views the game from their own perspective- I like to think I'm usually polite and collected, but I've been accused of unpleasant things before. And sadly Conor, I've tried that method before in sending someone an OOC tell asking about their unwarranted actions, but people will have reasons and will vehemently believe that they are right. I just find it hard to wrap my head around. I don't think people become completely separated even when they enter the game- some influence of their OOC personality and experiences still leak in.

Also interesting you brought up the Aetherplex incident Somaria. I actually talk to Shan on a fairly regular basis and I got a different side of the story (nothing malicious though), and I know when he's making things up. Again, we all interpret and experience Lusternia from a different point of view.

PS Aison stepped down on her own!

I have often felt the need, when playing any game, to vent my frustration on other people. For example, I play a lot of DotA, a Warcraft 3 mod, and will sometime join a public game just to completely dominate the people inside. (Most of the time, heh.) But it is always much easier to take it out on someone who is being a complete and utter jerk. To reference a current situation, Glomdoring has very few powerful members in general. I myself am hardly a combatant and only interested to the extent that I'm able to survive if jumped. But with the constant raids on the trees with myself the only Druid on at the time, I'm forced to inneffectively fight others. Apologies for spoiling your fun, but I've come close to telling them to off, because of the amount of time it takes to replant the trees. And when you need something like fifteen nuts... the game becomes stressful.

All you feel in those situations is the want to do it back to them, to make them understand what it's like to have your gameplay disrupted constantly by their actions. While a little bit of griefing now and then is everyone's right, especially when frustrated, it seems very unfair to others to do it constantly. No matter how IC something is for Iwiertas, if I suddenly figure out that it's annoying others immensely, I try to cut back on it or change the direction of Iwiertas ever so slightly. In game, I've honestly felt the need to go to Demi for the same reason Lendren got it: so I can deal with combat griefing without having to get involved; I have a fairly high ping from my laptop.

I know I've certainly been a jerk to others at points. For example, I do regret ousting Celina as part of Fain's Order, no matter how IC it was. For that day, I had completely ruined her fun. Murdering Zaden was another one. I regret that one entirely as well; there was no reason for me to do that other than 'greefing', and I still can't get over the fact that I was one of the people that made him leave.

One of the main causes of the greefing in Lusternia, however, is the massive difference between artied demi's and regular people. While I certainly don't deny them the right to use what they have bought and enjoy it, you simply -cannot- defend against an artied demigod warrior, a VA and an artied guild champion. For example, I remember a time a year or so back when I had a Serenwilde alt where the entire Paladin leadership came onto Ethereal and started killing -everyone- for absolutely no reason at all other than that two of them were artied and wanted to fight random people.

The other one, however, is RP. The one thing that constantly annoys me is people using HONOURS as a logical source for knowing everything about another person. You look at them, realize that they're a newbie, and start insulting any threats they have inside the RP, -even- if they are better geared than you, etc etc. And in a game with such a large difference between those who fight and those who don't, that entire section of the RP becomes invalid.

But mostly, I agree with Elostian.

Sidenote: Tonni was insulting me in tells. Even when I tried to bring out the conversation publically. I doubt Shan, whom I actually like, would hear anything said so privately. It was only after I accidentally killed Shan during one of Somaria's admittedly rough 'play time' sessions, that Tonni took the insults to an earnestly unacceptable level and I began a combo (Stopping it and allowing him to leave and heal, mind you). When he came back and tried to hit back, I had had enough.

A good post, Iwiertas.

Nine times out of ten, when we're conversing about players going too far, it's a conversation about Player-Killing. There's two things I have to say on that particular subject.

One, the people who not only know but also really internalize the fact that the little percentage counter which tells them how experienced they are is not very important have a much easier time than others. I say this because many people, myself included, tend to get a little stressed or distraught when their character dies...reflecting on this often helps prevent the game from becoming something that isn't fun.

Two, when it comes to stepping over the line into griefhood..it's something that nearly everyone who participates in combat will engage in. It's a very, very good feeling, to go out and wtfpwnfaces, it really is. The adrenaline flows, endorphins are probably swimming around in there somewhere, you just beat someone despite all their skills, resources and (usually) friends. It's a good experience. Pretty much everyone wants to heighten or extend that experience, and they often cross the line, usually not too far, while seeking to do this. It's just a human thing. This really isn't something you can police from an administrative standpoint, just something you can punish, usually, if required. It's up to the players to control themselves, and that won't always work even with the best of intentions.

So. It's up to the participants to defend themselves against such situations in two ways. To concentrate on not becoming inordinately upset when someone crosses the line, and to concentrate on not crossing the line, even if inordinately upset. When that's done well, real griefing really becomes a rarity.

I don't think I agree with this premise.

There is a huge part of the game that is organization versus organization-- things that you can do to the other org, that is not necessarily PvP, but which ends up costing your enemy a huge amount of time and/or resources. Far more effort and frustration than even straight-up killing them five times in a row. That sort of thing can end up being every bit as crushing in the long-term, especially if it's consistently kept up (and the people who are doing it know full well what they are doing, say "I'm a jerk," and keep on doing it).

Daedalion's done it in the past (though he got better), Gregori's saying he's going to do it now. While the playerbase as a whole may frown on these proceedings, there's almost always one person (at least) who feels that their enjoyment is more important than anyone else's. It is "their right" to do whatever they want to another organization, on an OOC level, simply because they have the skills and want a few laughs. It's happened with Demon Lords, Supernals, angels and demons, Daughters and Ladies, Meteor, Mulch, and on and on. And none of this is PvP.

These are all things that were created to foster conflict, but which have the ability to be taken Too Far by players.

QFT. This is exactly the sentiment that needs to be felt. Don't accuse others of failing, and certainly don't grief them in a way that hurts them even if they are not around to resist. (Such as excessive mulching.)

And thank you, Saaga.