No reply? I r crushT.

Actually, it seemed to be: "If I give them a really hard time and they don't say they're OK with it afterwards, then I feel bad-- whether or not they complained" (looking at the example of the Elfen Novice who didn't respond to his OOC comment that it was nothing personal). It seems the better question would be "Why are you playing a character that makes you feel this bad this much," but perhaps there's enough positive to counteract that?

No i didnt mean that i think going around and griefing ppl is fun or what i want to do, i just meant that my character is supposed to do things that are against moral norms, such as backstabbing or viewing other races as inferior because that goes with *his* morals. I was simply saying that i personally have trouble playing my character 'correctly' because i'm afraid of doing something i view as natural RP for my character because i dont want to bother other ppl out of character by things that are purely IC, i dont want someone to be mad at OOC me cuz of something my character would do i.e. PK, backstab, and so on. i mean its a game, i just feel that some people take things that happen IG and IC too personally OOC and *that* makes it not fun, because i can not be true to my character because of it.

i hope you get what i mean...kind of feel like you think i want to be a jack secretly or something lul




At first i wanted to play a character completely unlike me, in other games you are often thrust into the 'good guy' role, i just wanted to experiment with a 'bad guy' i wanted to play someone chaotic and slightly evil cuz *i* am nothing like that. And Ralanbek doesnt make me feel bad because i've been too afraid to make him do 'evil' things. I also like Mag's culture and all and upon playing the game further found the 'good' side slightly cheesy and over done, IMO that is.

I think Desitrus raises a good point. What's the reward for being decent? It doesn't save you from being griefed by others. Not jumping people doesn't get you noticed unless you flaunt how nice you are, and in that case people dislike because you boast. It can be very stressful trying to hold on to kindness while people are harassing you with constant PK every time you step outside your org. Calling them out publicly will, generaly, do nothing but get you flamed and insulted. Retaliating directly isn't an option of the person is better/bigger/stronger than you. The temptation to go out and randomly beat the snot out of lowbie joe because he's in the same org as the jerk who has jumped you 8 times in 2 days can be overwhelming at times. Doing nothing can be even more frustrating.

So why stay your hand? Because your mother always said it's best to be the bigger person? The reason I refrain from angry retaliation is because I've been there and I know how it feels to get so annoyed from being jumped for the 5th time in a day, or when people on news boards take advantage of a situation to be outright insulting. I know what it feels like when the game stops being fun. Maybe that's not a reward, but knowing I'm not sucking the fun from someone else in a game is enough for me and I know it's enough for a lot of people that play. I believe that's what Elostian was referring to. Having decency isn't about expecting rewards and accolades for doing the right thing.

It's like that old cliche "If there is a stop sign in the middle of the desert and no one is around, do you stop?"

Actually, I am (usually) left alone. While I would be anyways from most people, there are a few who would spend more time prodding at me if I was consistently griefing their novices/young for whatever reason-- and while I can escape pretty easily, not dealing with it when I don't want to is a pretty nice thing. However, I do understand that there's a level of player beneath which the person is seen as "open game" to some whether or not they've done a whole lot...

Of course, I'm not the type who relishes PvP when I'm not actually looking for it, so that affects my opinion a bit. If I didn't really care about getting jumped (like Thoros and Desitrus), there really wouldn't be a benefit to being "good".

I also don't think I generally flaunt or boast about it. It's not exactly something that heavy PvPers look highly on anyways-- there's a definite mindset that elevates PKers above others in certain circles. Advertising that you're not or trying to use it as a cloak is something that would actually get a number of people who think a certain way to go after you for fun (see: Zacc). However, if you just do what you do... it is quite possible to get noticed. Take Xiran, for example-- never boasts "I'm a pacifist, leave me alone!," but most of Glom knows (well, perhaps knew, since I don't see her as much now) that she's pretty much to be left alone. Not that there'd be any Glom-punishment if she is killed, but even so... we tend to leave her be. She's "Not A Threat," I guess.

I do not want to defend anyone but hypothetically speaking from their point of view it could be seen that you deliberately provoked them 5 times by continuing to go back and do something (I assume PvE in an enemy area) that was against their, or their orgs, rp. They could also just have been jerks out to kill you because they could and because they wanted to provoke a rant from you.

This is where I think things break down. One group of players wants to see PvE as a mostly OOC action that should be treated by other players as such. So you might attack someone once for killing bunnies but if they go back to killing bunnies you should ignore it. The other group sees player actions, even with NPCs, as fair game for responses. While another group just uses any excuse to kill another and they later justifies it.

I see pvp as a range:

-1. Dessy will never engage in PvP
0. Dessy will never engage in offensive PvP, only defending the "supermobs"
1. Dessy ignores any NPC interaction you have, only involving himself in offensive PvP with you for player interaction reasons (you insulted his kid, you killed his guildmate, whatever)
2. Dessy kills you now and then when he sees you killing bunnies but he never makes you pray and he never does it multiple times in a row
3. Dessy kills you every single time you are killing bunnies but never goes out of his way to track you down or guard the area
4. Dessy guards bunnies and kills you every single time you step foot in the place
5. Dessy spam scries just you over and over and kills you the instant you step foot in any place he can get away with killing you

Obviously people do not just fall in a given level but the most complaints seem to be at level 2+ with level 5 getting into the realm of issuable harassment. I do not think the players will ever see eye to eye on this, but I also do not think that every single person who kills you over an NPC interaction is using it as a "flimsy rp" excuse, nor do I think everyone that does it is actually "rping". As with most things it is more complex than a simple black and white rant (note: I am not claiming that you see things this way celina, your post just brought these thought to mind).

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell the org opposing yours is a tidbit different than the one opposing mine, Sir Xenthos. If you went to war with Mag, the really drawn out nitty gritty kind, do you think they would leave you alone on principle, or let you bash to trans Ascendance while chatterboxing it up with you on Bellators? Also, the opportunity simply isn't there like it is for cubixers harrassing Water/Earth/Nil/Celestia as you seem to be lacking Cubix exits. Opportunity is riding that tandem murder bike with motive, you know?

I am quite aware that the level of Commune conflict isn't quite the same as the City conflict, yes. However, if Glom was warring Mag, and if I wasn't doing anything at all to them except defending? I do think that most of them would leave me alone, still. The sort who go after defenders for defending usually go after the midbies, and Ascendance is bad enough that Mag would have no real incentive to stop me from learning it. Just like they don't really have much incentive to stop you from getting essence for Ascendance, either. Wow, you can fly!

Thank goodness for that. I think it's healthy for the game to have different "feuds" have differing levels of intensity because it gives people options, rather than trying to cram everyone into the "everyone fights, all the time" box, or the "Nobody fights, ever" box.

Except that it has nothing to do with what you "do to them" as they jump non-comms all the time. Hell, one of them went into a kephera hive and dominated Kelysa to kick a Hive King, then webbed her until the mob got the kill to dodge Avenger. She's not enemied and she's about the walking definition of pacifist, influencing aligned mobs. She's not even Celestian. As I said before, it's all perception. If Shuyin was on par with some of them he'd have jumped you during the grind to Trans constantly. It's not that he wanted to stop you, just that you were exposed while grinding it. Also, as I said before, it's not like you have an equivalent of water/earth/nil/celestia where people bash or defend constantly and said area is easily accessible by cubixes. Also, any time between what, a year ago and up to three months ago attacking Glom with any fervor was considered on par with punching quads.

... and there goes the gentlemanly behavior, via the forums...

Gee. Anyone else noting that the last few pages seem to make this whole thread kind of a joke?

Edit: Ninja'd

Moved all rants about Avenger circumvention to a rant thread in Idiots. Let's keep this thread civil.

As I was in a car crash recently... yes I just might.

However in the end it comes down to those piracy ads you see at movies, people know it's wrong to steal and sneak into movies without paying so irl fewer people do it. If you add the number of people who do the same thing online (downloading/youtube) the number would probably explode.

Same thing here, but because the cops aren't likely to bust into your pc any time soon for griefing there is less motivation to not do it...

I have a point... somewhere

There are a few factors in this. People who are completely useless in PvP but still like the thrill of winning in PvP tend to jump people who can't put up a meaningful defence. Xenthos won't get jumped by the likes of Tael. He probably wouldn't get jumped by the Ethelons of the world either, since even for people who are good at fighting, Xenthos isn't a guaranteed win. There are competent fighters who fight for the thrill of combat and are pretty good at finding excuses for it. About half of them want to fight other fighters who are also very active combatants. Xenthos won't get jumped by Murphies, but he might by Talkans. Then you have the "org supremacy" crowd, who are pretty much insatiable in their desire to kill anything that would put up enough of a fight for it to not get labelled griefing that come from the opposing org. Malicias and Narsrims have quite the history of jumping poor Xenthos. On the plus side, the trick to avoiding them is avoiding conflict with Celest, and Xenthos is one of the original inventors of the anti-Celest ganking spray, McTreaty.

Well, I don't really hav anything to share, but I do have my experiences.

Firstly, there is a very real sense that the stronger you are preceived to be, the less likely you will be jumped. When Lorick was a little 40-50 monk, the issue of being jumped was much more common. Constant scrying, skirmishes, even gank groups on the off hours. However, after beating in some skulls, and gaining a bit higher level, these became a few and far between occurance. Now, if I am to be jumped, it will be by certain individuals acting in a group, and pretty much only these people. I guess power over the world around you can translate into sort of a protection from the majority of grief that lowbies experience all the time.

Secondly, I never really got the point of off prime pvp. So... You jumped someone on Water or Earth who was bashing, and most likely couldn't hold a candle to you, so they could nearly instantly be revived and suffer only minor loss versus your gain? Same with Celestia and Nil, I never got the raids whose primary purpose was killing people, not mobs, since mobs tend to help you much much more. One of the reason I don't normally engage in combat off of prime.. What is the point?

To be fair, people hunting on water who can't hold candles to other people typically don't conglute. Prayer :/

And there are some people who go, "Haha, pray, s!" when they're the cause of that.

Note, I fight mostly liches.