We do? Most of the time my struggles lie with grabbing the attention of those members of the Cult that would rather hide in their Manse and conspire about nonsense. I dont think I've once ever ordered the guild to kellz someting aside from when it is only Garmr and I around.

Ordering people has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Moiraine's never been told "Don't kill babies." Yet, that is the role of the 'light' side, her side. A negative role, by the way. On the dark side, it becomes a positive. On the dark side, it's an unspoken "Don't kill OUR babies...but tossing enemy babies on spikes would make for really cool decor."

Remember it's a generality and, in general, people respond more to positive enforcement and, to be honest, horribleness and gore much more than to negative enforcement and horsies and rainbows. Many people are the exact opposite, many are in between, but as a generality it's true.

So when someone says they wonder why, in general, the dark side of games tend to get more player love than the light...that's why. There's just more to love about the dark stuff.

Edit: Or rather, it's easier to love the dark stuff. It encourages all those dark little urges we all have and can't share with others in real life, with little to no chance of accountability.

Which is the same reason everyone tries to turn the non-dark sides dark.

In fact, of the many characters I've had over the years...well, I've had fine upstanding citizens of goodness, and villains, zealots, pacifists, crazies, all of it...and while for me the 'good' characters tend to be more stable(I play them longer), the evil ones provides the most intense and sheer awesome enjoyment, no contest.

The crazy monk girl I made in Aetolia, who had the entire Nebre'seir vampire clan declare war on her when all she had was a blue belt, who became such a hated GM that secret clans were purchased by the Sentaari just to plan her downfall, who killed her GM fiance Gods know how many times for the slightest of reasons(OMG WTF I WAITED FIVE MINUTES I DONT CARE YOU HAD THINGS TO ATTEND TO).

The cannibal Lamiran(Merian) girl from Imperian, who got physically ill at even the thought of eating anything that wasn't Lamira meat, or possibly Lamira meat with garlic(not much!), who hired tailors all over the place to commemorate her favorite meals with boots, hats, vests, gloves, you name it. Who actually wound up extorting gold from family members of Lamirans who paid for their 'protection', at a price of 5k per game year per person(I had 17 contracts at one point...and got kinda hungry >.<). Who stole an actual working halo from the head of the order of the God of Light...and still wears it to this day.

The Idras chick also from Imperian, who wasn't evil so much as manipulative and obsessive, who stumbled across a little Bard girl doing the dirty in some abandoned ruins. Spent over nine in-game years torturing this Bard in every conceivable way. Blackmailed tens of thousands from her that first day just by nodding! (She convinced herself I'd been hired to spy on her) Followed by years of following her like a shadow. When she was relaxing at home, here the sneaky Idras would show up just to have a philosophical debate about what a worthless pile of crap she was. Hunting, here's the sneaky Idras following and soaking up exp(And ninja'ing gold! ), just to laugh at how feeble she was. She was a big mudseckser, and there that Idras was, all the time, breaking up the party and letting the world know just who exactly she was doing it with.

All absolutely fun(for all parties, I hope, I never had any real complaints and often communicated oocly at a fairly early point), all chock full of stories, yet, for me, short-lived characters. I tend to like the light side of things.

The difference? I just gave you three paragraphs of three evil characters I've had, with some indication of the awesomeness they were. Their stories are not nearly as rich, complicated or interesting as my 'good' characters, but it'd take twice this much typing to really get started on conveying what any one of those characters really was. It's a better overall experience, but only after a great deal more effort. Most people, playing a game, want some instant gratification. That would be another, more lengthy, reason why evil orgs tend to see more love.

Doublepost=evil

Edit@Shiri: True dat. For example, I'm so tired of the 'I'm a zealot of goodness I don't care what atrocities I must commit to be a good person' Sure, it's fun...but overdone. Waaay overdone.

True enough.

I know it's probably been said but in my experience creating new activities, ceremonies, or what have you and allowing guildmembers the chance to add input makes them feel a part of what's going on. When you're invested in something you're more likely to work for it and add to it.

Celestines had a problem with people getting ordained with what seemed like half going inactive because there just wasn't anything to do anymore. We created two priest paths that required them to do things that were new and different and we've had several work on them!

The Aquamancers used to have over 60% of its members at rank 1 (numbers courtesy of the GA book when I was Magister) because so many people were refusing to do the Initiates exam (r1 -> r2). In the time I've been an Aqua, it's gone through at least three rewrites but even the first incarnation - the one Denust and several other current officers had to take - was not impossible or even terribly difficult. We thought it was a problem of incentive, because not many really seemed motivated to do all the basic tasks just for a guildfavor.

In its current form, we've been having better results (namely more rank two and higher members) and I think it is due to Kalila changing the exam to require more thought and RP than before. Its previous form was something like a checklist of things to do and know; the current one has some other, more immersive requirements, such as writing about the experiences in the guild or about how the student applies the teachings of one Supernal to his or her life as an Aquamancer, etc.

Oh, and something not within my mini-essay: personalization. Players oftentimes prefer things they can customize to some extent, be it by choosing between different tasks, writing something of their own thoughts, elaborating on their own thoughts, etc. A rigid structure can be excellent, but the space for personality must be there.

You also have to give Faragan a lot of credit for that. I know he has worked really hard to try and connect the Aquas to the Supernals in a more involved way.

As was said by Meliana, Celestines has a problem with activity. introducing some new rituals and the like, though, seems to be helping a lot. It is difficult to get people involved, though, when they don't want to be...

This probably isn't the place for it but I have a couple seconds and I'll say it anyway.

I think what would make the Guardians more attractive is to boost their combat abilities (or combat options really) to be on par with warriors. Celestine combat ...just isn't that exciting.

Even a novice warrior (skill not exp rank) can damage to outpace healing to kill but Celestines really can't. You can only really kill with a Celestine by damage with an Imperial Merian (Amaru's opinion). This attracts players to a guild. Since absolve is one of our unique kills and not all classes (warriors/monks) use that much mana with their abilities. I'd say perhaps give an ALTERNATE symbol that allows symbol strike to do mana damage instead of health damage, afflict and do something else instead of the minor defense buff. Allow the Celestine the ability to chose which symbol he would like to use so you have more versatility.

Mostly uninformed and untested? Sure but its a sketch thought.

Yeah, let's do that.

EDITED: For the doctrinally illiterate. Sorry about that. Habit from reading too many manuals.


His post was quite a ways back, but I have to agree with Akui on this one. It specifically conjured up images of the Fianna riding all over Ireland hunting on whomever's land they pleased, arguing and brawling with each other, but ultimately answering the call to defend Ireland when the armies of the kings at hand could not withstand an invasion. It is traditionally thought that they were a tight-knit group of young nobles who had not yet come into their inheritance (id est, either their fathers weren't dead yet or they were too far away from the throne to matter). I certainly think it would make an interesting environment to see that played out in-game. Additionally, the problem may be that it needs to be one of two choices: either there is a rigid, militaristic structure of rank and files, or it is a loose federation of warriors who share a common goal. Now, given my personal history the former makes sense for the sort of environment that is conducive to victory and excellence, while the latter drums up vivid images that spark my creativity and honestly just seems like a lot more fun to play.

Somewhere in the process of time we have all forgotten just how brutal life set in a world like this would be. Even now everything is not as clear cut, black is black and white is white as the shows on television want kids to believe. It seems to me that this whole caste of killing our enemies on sight is wrong and raiding their villages is not fair is for the birds. Warriors of old never had any qualms with taking out a blood debt. The Fianna certainly lived on the principle that you do not go out looking for enemies to make, but you are free to settle your problems as you see fit. If that requires you to take the head of someone who has crossed you, then so be it. They'll get resurrected, bring friends with them, kill you, you resurrect, bring even more friends, more people die, but ultimately, life goes on. While I don't enjoy dying for no good reason, I've never been one to complain when it happens on a mission for the commune. We're warriors right? That's what we do. How many kings have lined up troops on the battlefield to serve only as fodder? It doesn't bother me. I'm getting off the point.

It is possible to be organized and laisse fair. While it might be too much to offer a tangible reward as an incentive, all it really takes is to create the sort of game play experience that people are looking for. In order to achieve that you would have to hold open forums for people to voice their opinions and schedule events so that people could come around at a specific time and know that something exciting is going to happen. It either takes a lot of work from one person or a little bit of effort from everyone. Personally, I would like to see everyone put forth the effort to put a more distinctive face on the Serenguard than there currently is. Right now we're just sort of in limbo, I definitely agree on that. I dunno. This hasn't been extremely well thought out of a post. But, in short, I think the point is that we all have been thinking this for a little while. At any rate, change or not, it would be nice to see some more interaction.

^^^^^ can we have paragraphs please? That entire block of text hurts me and I am tempted to say 'tl;dr'.




There is nothing wrong with the Celestine kills. If anything Celestine newbie bashing is way better than Paladin newbie bashing. It only crap when you don't have a symbol and you're level 80ish. And at that point warrior bashing speeds up and celestine bashing slows down.

Also, any Celestine deep bonded to Elohora can powersink and drain the mana of their opponent, instead of using symbol strike. There is no problem with the way absolve works right now, especially if certain warriors forget to remove surge. Absolving has never been a problem, and if it is, it's because the Celestine doesn't know what they're doing. It's easy to do if you can cure and tank a little bit of damage. Especially easy since the warrior nerf as well.

It's more about flavor of the guild and how interactive it is. It's difficult to be interactive when you have hardly any members. It's also difficult to be of any help when you can't even log in to Lusternia.

I've watched the Paladins go from a pretty defunct guild to a bustling center of Celestian activity while I was in it (it has gone down with inactivity though). What I noticed, besides all of the hard work that various leaders of the time put into it, was that they exemplified an example of what they desired the guild to stand for. So it was not only that they created rules and regulations to follow, but that they also gave an example of what they wanted the people to perceive what a member of the guild should be. So essentially, it was a combination of the rituals and actions of what one segment is speaking and charismatic leadership of which another speaks.

Just remember that it is not possible to convert everyone or get everyone involved, so don’t overly worry about those who are not participating as much as you may desire. Just focus more on creating an atmosphere that is conducive to what your image of what a Serenguard warrior should be, and then actually be an exemplary example of such (Essentially, lead by example).

Two things Aison!

Forcing a Celestine to pick Elohora to mana-burn isn't quite right, is it? It's supposed to be a matter of Idealogy when you pick a supernal, so wouldn't Japhiel and Raziela be more suited to mana burning?

TWO! Powersink is an affliction that drains mana each tick, it does not actively drain mana each time it's cast. At least I don't think so...

And yet almost no combatants are actually pacted to Ashtorath and Methrenton. That ship is long since sailed...

I've seen a few. Why not place the active mana Burn on those two then? Make it at least somewhat worth while?

It seems like it makes more sense to use powersink as an invested power and chant amissio rather than invoking powersink on the enemy with your symbol.

To be fair, and from my understanding, Ashtorath isn't really The Combat Person so much as as he is The Raging Person. That is, Xiel nerdraging would fit Ashtorath as well as Shuyin cracking skulls.

Out of curiousity, just what IS "crunch"?