Not to mention having to know where the bits and pieces are (generally caused by writing it in the first place, or spending a LOT of time trying to sort through someone else's code), as well as having to code for efficiency (it's very to make inefficient code that, when sent to hundreds or thousands of clients, causes severe performance issues).

Huh, I always assumed most of the gods played duel roles. It seems suprising if Morgfyre and Charune have never had any role with creating areas. I know both are well known for their creativity and RP. And I just assumed all of the gods at least knew or were taught the basics of the IRE code.

And you have to be creative in both roles. If we are going to say coding for Lusternia is like cooking then it is going to be like a five star chef. They design things themselves, using a recipe as a base and improving on it.

You don't just need creativity for writing, though, you need good writing skills as well. They're related but you can certainly have one without the other.

I think this debate is silly.

To perform any task well, or to create any sort of exceptional product, requires talent. Coding requires talent. So does writing, building, or handling administration issues with tact (these seem to be lumped together, though they are different tasks).

Trying to argue which is easier or harder is also silly. I think coding is confusing and much harder than writing. Someone else might very well disagree with me, and since we're different people with different talents, we'd both be right!

As far as recognition, perhaps builder/admins deserve more kudos for their quality work, but as Eventru pointed out, people often rant regarding new (or not so new) features. It seems easier to point towards the coders when the complaint is about envoy changes or new mechanics. Perhaps the admin who designed the Tainted Broadcast Centre is happy he/she doesn't have to be associated publicly with this area that seems so problematic to some people?

Edit: Hmm, on reading my last comment over I feel it might be construed as a criticism of the TBC. I've never been there, and I'm sure it's well put together, it just seems to me that the designer might be glad that he/she doesn't have to have the ire against the honour quest directed at him/her.

If you are a admin on a mud then I think good writing skills are a given. I would say that all of the gods are at least decent writers if not better.

Ok let me clarify some things.

1. This isn't about who gets paid and who doesn't get paid
2. I never said coders are not creative, I said coding is a cookbook, and it is. I have grown up with programming my entire life, and I don't mean this script kiddie stuff that people call coding, I mean everything from RPG, Assembler, Fortran, Cobal... real languages. All I heard from the day I can remember was programming. I am well aware of what is involved in the process of coding, and the necessity for creativity.
2. When I compared Coding to Creativity I was comparing the process of writing large areas and building them from scratch compared to coding something you have probably coded or copied in similar fashion numerous times over.
3. I don't care how hard coding or how easy coding is. I grew up watching 3 floors of programmers code daily. You think their clientele knew who coded what or gave a crap about the 60 coders that put in the work, or that so and so was just raised to Assistant Director of Data Processing. I can bet the majority of their clientele knew which movie was just being released and what actors were in it, and quite probably who made the movie, though.

This is the disparity that this thread was started around. One set of gods gets continued recognition, the other is left in the back room and told "spit out more words!"

That sounds like a flaw with society. I certainly don't give a crap about who is overpaid to tell a story that gives me 2 hours of amusement

You might not give a crap, but I bet you can say who is in that 2 hours of amusement, yet you can't say who did all the CGI coding for it.

Probably couldn't tell you either. Definitely couldn't tell you the director. Celebrities annoy me, they think they matter.

How much are you betting?

I have a hard enough time with the names of people I meet, much less people I'm never ever going to meet and see maybe once or twice in my entire life on some screen. That doesn't mean I don't (or do) like the movie, of course-- I just don't memorize the names. Or watch the credits.

The difference being that there is one visible person for each visible role, but there isn't one person responsible for the CGI. Likewise, you might know the actors and the director, but you probably don't know the screenwriters.

See, this is where you are all wrong. You know every person who played a role in that movie. It lists them all at the end of it. Whether you choose to read that or not is another matter. The fact remains, they have their recognition for their work for all the world to see.

Are you going to make me quote you to yourself, or can you do that alone?

EDIT: And IRE occasionally publishes the names of its paid staff members, although I'm still not sure if Estarra or Roark is the illustrious Robert French.

EDITEDIT: And you're probably about as likely to have known that the names are published as you are to know who worked on CGI or did screenwriting.

Don't we have a list of every Divine who does something for Lusternia? Whether that be coding or anything else, the end product (Lusternia) has the names of every Divine attached. Whether you choose to read them or not.

... at least, if you're going to compare a full project (a movie) to a full project (a game), not just the little bits and pieces of it (such as a scene). I don't think the credits say "So-and-so did scenes 1, 4, 9, and 10."

Sure we do. When someone says something nice about a project we worked on, it's a great feeling, and there's no worry about their opinion being influenced by who did the work.



We're all reward equally for our effort!

Life requires can become hectic. Many players end up having to leave for the same reason.



I think the fact that so many do just goes to prove that there's no disparity at all. We all are treated fairly, and we enjoy the rewards we get for our work.

and yet announce posts continuously say "thanks to so an so coder for fixing this!"

not "thanks to so and so for running this event or building recent areas!"

You do realize that marketing campaigns tend to play up "the lead role" (especially if it's a Star), while most of the other crew is never mentioned? I mean, I can kind of see your point, but your analogy just doesn't fit.

I treasure all our admin gods and I certainly hope they don't feel slighted! Maybe I need to mention more how Lisaera is one of the strong pillars in Lusternia and I don't know what I'd do without her. How much I love Terentia's presence, how Fain makes me laugh, how Elostian makes me think, and how often I go to Viravain for advice. Where would we be without Nocht's thoughtful creativity and Eventru's humour and many, many talents. Charune is not only a great coder but also is integral to the design of new skills and help with balancing combat. No, we don't tell players which gods make which areas or are in charge of what events, nor do we tell players who helps with issues or designs or any of the other behind-the-scenes matters. That's because that's what they are--behind the scenes--and I believe that in that respect the admin should remain firmly behind the curtain.

So why do volunteer admins do what they do? As I was one for many, many years (i.e., a non-paid volunteer god), I can only say that some people like being behind the curtain, pulling the strings. Whether it is designing areas, running events, handling issues (though I personally never understood, there are those who enjoy handling issues!), or whatever it is, volunteers do it because they like to. If you've ever played a tabletop RPG, why on earth would some people enjoy being the Game Master? There's so much work just to entertain others, yet they do it because they love it. For volunteer admins, this is their hobby and they do it because they enjoy it. When it is no longer is enjoyable, then they leave. My job is to try to make their hobby as enjoyable as possible for as long as possible.

For the record, I think building is just as important as coding, and certainly I don’t believe –anyone- can do it (because I’ve seen so many fail at it!). It takes a lot of creativity, dedication and perseverance to make what I consider a good area with a strong quest. However, the truth is that coding takes more specialized skill and few coders really rise to the level of a Charune or a Morgfyre. And, yes, we do want to keep them which is part of the reason for hiring them--coding is extremely important which provides for the stability and integrity of Lusternia as well as the basis for adding new features.

So while I wish we had the resources to be able to better compensate all our volunteers, the grim economic reality is that we do what we can. Just keep in mind that gods are doing this because they want to, that events and areas and your orders are run by people who do so because they enjoy seeing you have fun, and that they get a kick out of enhancing your experience.

Maybe all of us are guilty of not giving them the accolades they deserve.

Very well said, Estarra.

Quick, close the thread and let it end on the awesome note!