State of Lusternia Meeting

by Shiri

Back to Common Grounds.

Celina2008-09-10 00:18:43
I still say the envoys are ridiculously political, but I guess I'm wrong. Maybe lich TOUCH really isn't supposed to be used for combat. It just requires you to declare for RP flavour.
Daganev2008-09-10 00:19:21
If I didn't have to work 9-5 everyday, and then take care of the rest of my life, I'd definitly still be playing more. But my biggest complaint about Lusternia, is that its not condusive to "casual gaming" *frown*
Shiri2008-09-10 00:25:41
There are -so- not a lot of monks around, my guild is one of the smallest in the game at least partly because issues with guilds within an org having an RP and mechanical (inc. non-combat) role have never really been addressed.

The bashing imbalance is present as various people have described, warrior > monk > bard > wiccan > mage > druid/guardian. The combat expensiveness is also a factor.

As it happens I still have written down a bunch of issues that were brought up last time Estarra asked what issues should be brought up: forging, monk/bard org integration, ascendants, domoths (seperate issues), scope of envoys (partly fixed, hey).

I'm not sure if this is what actually needs to be brought up though. These are all significant issues with the game that would improve it if fixed but I am not certain that this is what Ianthe means by the "state of Lusternia." I could be wrong though. Estarra, can you please clarify the kinds of things he is likely to want to know? I'd like to prepare some material in the event I'm selected to go.

EDIT: Celina, I don't think lich touch was a political thing: it was an admin-having-different-ideals thing. Both things happen frequently though - sometimes everyone will be begging for a change to, say, choke, and it just won't happen, or no one will object to a given idea and it gets thrown out for non-code-related reasons. Other times, an org jumps onto a change from another org, but it might happen anyway.

Daganev, you are quite right but that seems like such an utterly fundamental thing here that it's a bit like complaining there's no graphics: justifiable but a bit futile. That could just be me having a narrow perspective though.
Daganev2008-09-10 00:49:23
QUOTE(Shiri @ Sep 9 2008, 05:25 PM) 555378
Daganev, you are quite right but that seems like such an utterly fundamental thing here that it's a bit like complaining there's no graphics: justifiable but a bit futile. That could just be me having a narrow perspective though.


I was explaining, not complaining smile.gif

I also assumed that was just the way the game is. However, I wonder if something can be done about it.

I also wonder if something can/is done about it, if that will increase the population so that hali/gaudi/ackel can be released....

I'll have to think up some analogies/paradigms for the "casual Lusternian..." (i.e. start a new thread)
Unknown2008-09-10 01:11:29
FIX FORGING!

I figured someone would have already done that, but just for all you forgers out there, I figured I'd get it on the board.
Shiri2008-09-10 01:28:58
QUOTE(tenqual @ Sep 10 2008, 02:11 AM) 555397
I figured someone would have already done that

I did! biggrin.gif
Xavius2008-09-10 01:43:02
Here are my thoughts as someone who once played, but probably will not seriously play any IRE game again. Most of these things are traits of IRE MUDs, rather than Lusternia.

The startup cost is too high. When you're itty-bitty, the reinforcement for playing comes from rapid advancement. It's easy to gain a level. It's easy to get out of novicehood. Most of the time, it's easy to get GR2. Lessons come faster, and you can get new skills for fewer lessons. Then you hit level 50, pull some credits off the market, maybe buy a 15 or 40 credit package, get your skills up to gifted...and you hit the RL equivalent of one of Lusternia's reinforced steel doors. You suck at PK. Skill costs to get good at PK or a trade went from encouraging to depressing. You've done the non-competitive social advancement, but you aren't slated to be a secretary because everyone around you is more experienced. You have to choose at this moment to become a dedicated player or to leave. Staying in the middle is pointless. What is there to do?

Running with the above point, there's no room for casual gaming. Everything that's fun about Lusternia requires you to basically move in. The PvE sucks pretty hardcore. PvP requires dedication. Social advancement requires you to be very visible and very well connected.

Combine the above two points with the current state of online gaming. It takes hard work and/or a substantial cash outlay to get good. There's little entertainment value for the people who can't hope to get good. There's room for non-hardcore progression in most popular MMOs. If you've played WoW and stumbled upon Lusternia without knowing anything about it, without seeing the forums, without knowing in advance why people stick it out, why would you play? I think it's a question that needs to be answered for the continued success of IRE at large.
Doman2008-09-10 01:47:28
I'm completely behind Xavius on that
Aison2008-09-10 02:27:44
QUOTE(Estarra @ Sep 9 2008, 02:12 PM) 555306
Anyone want to share their opinions on the state of Lusternia?

anyone.gif


I think it is a great game. One of its most appealing facets is that it is NOT another backwash of Achaea. The small population is great, too, because quests are almost always open (save for the Delport quest sad.gif ). I wouldn't play it if it wasn't a great game, but to be honest, sometimes I question why I play it. There was a point where, 4/5 times of playing, I would walk away from the game frustrated and angry. My boyfriend even asked me why I bothered playing a game that only pissed me off.

However, with the recent nerfs and the attention we are getting from divine, and HOPEFULLY some combat balance we might get, I think Lusternia will be a better game.

I'm confused as to why bards and monks were released and am one of the players who think bards and monks ruined a good portion of the game. They seemed to have tipped the balance scale when it came to group combat. I have a lot of problems with Ninjakari and the stealth skills, with abilities like masquerade, evade, and chaindrag which seem to be there just to frustrate other players, and there is no way to stop them or prevent them from happening (which is a lot about balance). Why release 8 new guilds instead of just opening a new area like Ackleberry, with 4 guilds in it? Not only would that have prevented the long-term thinning of the population within guilds, but it would give people the option of playing neutral-characters, instead of being so closely tied to a 'mission'. This IS something people have been waiting for, and also a BIG reason why people play IRE games like Achaea over Lusternia. People want to be rogues, for whatever reason, and some people don't want to be treehuggers, wristcutters, evil perverts, or enlightened fish.

To summarize, it would be nice if, before new skills, areas, quests and the like are released, the admin would stop and think, 'Will this irritate the players?' If the answer is 'yes' on a big time scale (yes, 3 out of 4 orgs will likely hate this), then... you know, consider altering it. Consider not releasing it.

My two cents. Don't spark a rant or whatever from it, this is intended for Admin/Estarra to answer, before anyone decides to flame.

also, Xavius is spot on. great post.
Shiri2008-09-10 02:34:11
Expansion in terms of orgs, guilds and skillsets is necessary for growth. Some players will always be irritated by that kind of thing, but it has to happen anyway.
Unknown2008-09-10 02:46:55
No more bloody guilds or orgs. Or, well, delete monks + bards and release Gaudiguch/Hallifax (and yes, I realize this will never happen).

I completely agree with Xavius, but that point has been brought up so many times before, it seems rather pointless to state it again.
Xenthos2008-09-10 02:47:37
Or just delete monks & bards... and call it a day right there. wink.gif
Aison2008-09-10 02:48:53
Yeah, no objection to monks + bards being deleted biggrin.gif. The guilds are small enough anyway, it won't do any harm!
Aison2008-09-10 02:50:43
QUOTE(Salvation @ Sep 9 2008, 07:46 PM) 555430
No more bloody guilds or orgs. Or, well, delete monks + bards and release Gaudiguch/Hallifax (and yes, I realize this will never happen).

I completely agree with Xavius, but that point has been brought up so many times before, it seems rather pointless to state it again.


It'd be better if they deleted monks and bards and opened Ackleberry. One org, 4 guilds, oh yeah. content.gif
Unknown2008-09-10 02:51:46
I always thought Monks/bards was the wrong way to go about it. Monks should have been a warrior set and acrobatics be a choice over athletics. while bards would be a over celestines or nihilists or wicca really.
Xavius2008-09-10 02:51:55
Am I missing this mythical fourth beta guild?
Diamondais2008-09-10 02:54:48
QUOTE(Aison @ Sep 9 2008, 10:50 PM) 555435
It'd be better if they deleted monks and bards and opened Ackleberry. One org, 4 guilds, oh yeah. content.gif

The point of deleting them would to give the population to the other guilds, which can be quite small as well.
Noola2008-09-10 02:58:37
Why all the bard hate? I think bards are neat. Granted I don't fight... and the fact that a retarded monkey writes better poetry than me means that I always feel dumb when I try to play a bard. laugh.gif But the very idea of them seems really cool to me.
Shiri2008-09-10 03:05:44
Ok, I know I started the hijack so it's my fault, but let's abort this topic or take it over to another thread.
Xenthos2008-09-10 03:23:12
I felt like pulling up a post I made in the last "Lusternia's Direction" thread. It helped (for me at least) frame where Lusternia was 3.5 months ago, and more easily compare it to where the game's currently headed.

QUOTE(Xenthos @ May 30 2008, 03:52 PM) 516717
I'm going to take a few moments out of my vacation to pen a few thoughts (so excuse me if this isn't quite as complete as it could be).

I've seen this touched on a bit by others, and wanted to emphasize their points (since a lot of it seems to be getting lost in various other discussions about specific skillsets, or what have you):

There is a very real sense that Lusternia is on the "development track". Things are released, and while they may be examined once very shortly after release, once it's been out a bit "That's the way it is." It's very unlikely to change, because those who were working on it have already moved on to bigger and better (well, shinier) new things. This is great for a new game world, but consider that Lusternia is now over three years old.

There is three years worth of development that has mostly been introduced under this philosophy, and all of the discussions thus far have focused on "taking a break from releasing new things to tweak old bits that may be issues".

This is, itself, not only an issue: It is the issue.

Lusternia needs a consistent focus on existing content as well as new content. An equal amount of effort needs to be put into tweaking, fixing, and playing with the last three years' worth of development as is put towards "the new stuff". This means that if there is one person coding new things, one person should also be in charge of the "existing game and modifications thereof". We are not asking that the introduction of new content be halted! Far from it. However, there is far too much of an emphasis on new content and nowhere near enough of a spotlight on the old. As a part of this, numerous discussions and concerns raised on the forums go completely unanswered. Are they being ignored? There is no way to say from our end whether the concerns are even being heard by those who make the decisions, so whether they are being ignored or not from your end, from our end it really doesn't matter. When there is no response, it looks like it's a player concern that just is "not a concern".

Some examples of this include:
Constructs, effects thereof (the primary example would be the Dark Nest)
Constructs, battling (though this one actually disproves my point early on, as their creator was fiercely devoted to researching the matter and tweaking them throughout, this died off rather quickly due to unfortunate and unforeseen events, and devolved from there. The final tweak to them ended up introducing more issues, and now the issue's back up again)
Aetherspace (flying, aetherbubbles, creatures, ship issues)
Various skillsets (Riding, Dramatics, Crow, etc.)
Miniatures (Anyone remember what these are?)
Ascendance (Issues were raised a few weeks after its release once the issues were first beginning to surface. We were told to wait until it was Transcended, learn all about it, and then bring it up once more for discussion. This was done. The discussion was proceeding with Morgfyre, some ideas were raised and we were told those were the kind of ideas he was looking for. With no further discussion from him, it was just assumed that some of them were going to be tweaked in. Then we find out over a week later that not only has the entire issue been dropped, but it's "not an issue any more". This is a prime example of the concern that this post is addressing.)
Domoths, battling (Tweaked once, and apparently deemed a-okay without any other real discussion or asking how it's going.)
Domoths, rewards (Again, this has been brought up as an issue quite a bit from most of those involved, with no comment whatsoever.)
Etc.

I'm sure many more things can be listed, but really, it doesn't matter what the things are. What matters is the perception that this is the way Lusternia deals with its customers.

I've already given one primary solution, but really, what I think you need to do is to assign one of your Ephemerals to have more of a PR focus. Obviously, you all do a bit of it as part of your other duties, but you need someone who actually can "take the pulse" of the playerbase on a regular basis. There is a bit of a distance between the Administration and the players (something which you foster specifically to try and reduce favouritism, it seems-- I seem to remember you posting that the reason for not letting Divine play characters is because they would want to help the organization that character is in). For the most part, that's a good idea, but it does have its downsides (this distance). Even those who start off as players find themselves naturally distancing themselves from most mortals as time goes on (which is exactly what you want)... but to truly be able to figure out what we want and how to deal with us, you need to do something about the gulf between us. These threads are a start, but even in them, the same problems surface: The issues you don't want to deal with just get ignored.

Another idea would be to appoint two people from each organization as "envoys"-- not for skills and abilities, but for actual game-related things. It would function much like envoys, in that they show up in HELP SERENWILDE for example, and they would work closely with the person who is working on coding / fixing existing game mechanics and features, as well as your PR representative. It should be something separate from envoys, and probably not even allow the same person to do both (to begin with at least), but this would allow you to introduce things, wait two weeks, and then ask a small section of the playerbase from all organizations how the change/fix is working and what problems have arised.

Then your "tweaker" can address those issues, wait a few days, and ask if any more issues came up from that tweak.

This way, you completely destroy the perception that Lusternia is always looking forward, and rarely backward. You shore things up, you strengthen them, and improve them until most of the concerns are rectified. Likely not everything can be fixed, but even so, you'll get a lot closer this way than with the current setup. It will also, at the exact same time, address your "squeaky wheel" syndrome. Currently, the only real perceived way to get the Administration's attention is to keep bringing things up until they actually look at the problem. This can take months, or years-- and isn't pleasant for anyone involved, either the customers or yourselves. Instead, you'll have a small core of customers who bring things to your attention, who can discuss the issue with the dedicated tweaker and/or yourself, and actually return with a response instead of silence. Then, if the thing comes up again later... you now have 9 new people (the 8 representatives and your PR person) who can post with points why it's better / intended as it is (something you already benefit from with the envoy system).

That said, there are advantages to the way you do things. You release a lot of content, you keep looking forward, and hope to draw in new people with exciting new innovations. It does work, and a fair bit of what you do is outside the box. Lusternia is an exciting, evolving game which keeps us coming back. With that, however, comes issues: Things outside the box can be spectacular when they work, but occasionally they just don't, and need to be redone.

Before a year's time passes.

I have to note that a good number of the issues I raised have, indeed, been poked in the time since then.
+ Constructs were completely redone (though I would argue that the "disabling" them part still needs to be looked at, as being destroyed for 30 days is still pretty excessive. However, the effects seem to be much more balanced on the whole and Glomdoring's extra went poof. Seren's resurgem-restrictions may still need a bit of evaluation, though)
+ Aetherspace has had numerous tweaks to it, and seems to be approved of (in general) by a larger number of people now than at the time of the post.
+ A number of skillsets have had had entire envoy reports dedicated to them, and this is nearly wrapped up. While there are (obviously) more tweaks that need to be done, a lot of the major overhauling is already accomplished, leaving a much more manageable burden on Envoys.
- Ascendance hasn't really been touched, though it is on the backburner for tweaking we've been told, and maybe that's something to watch for after the rest of the skillsets are finished. It certainly touches a smaller portion of the playerbase.
- Miniatures (and other assorted mini projects) haven't been touched for tweaking purposes. Most likely due to the more important things that have been under development.
- Domoths (Well, as per agreement, I just won't delve into that further at present. You have all my reasoning anyways.)

There were lots of other things, with a large number of them having been looked at as well.

At the same time, there has been some new development and progress, new areas are still coming out, etc. So, while it does seem like there's a larger focus on shoring up the works than there was a few months ago, the game itself doesn't seem on-hold. What I'm hoping to see is, after you're done the large overhauls (of skillsets, primarily) is (as I said above) an equal focus on fixing old stuff and introducing new content. Lusternia is getting along in years, and while halting new development would most likely kill the game, the structure needs to remain sound (being tweaked as necessary as per legitimate player concerns). The best way to figure out what those player concerns are are to interact with us, and these Forums are the best place for that (so, essentially, keeping up the recent trend of posting with comments and demonstrating two-way communication is also important, though it does not necessarily need to be you yourself doing it, just someone on the Administrative team who is able to get your ear and/or point you at problems you may have missed).

(I'll just tag this as my TL;DR summary, since it turned out to be more of an epic length than I expected)
I will re-emphasize this line: "I'm sure many more things can be listed, but really, it doesn't matter what the things are. What matters is the perception that this is the way Lusternia deals with its customers."

You've been taking some very positive steps in correcting this recently, which is a good sign.