I've already submitted this to the appropriate envoys, but since I spent the time on it and I appreciate eyeballs actually reading the page I've decided to post it here. I'd like opinions about a) the posed problems with guardians and 
the feasibility of the solutions mentioned.
This is also to open the debate of how to make Celestines more combat diverse, since Nihilists/Ur'guard now have the Darkmark strategy which appears pretty interesting.
Celestines as a Guardian class have some issues within its skills leading to a dearth of combat strategies, primarily against monks and warriors. Ultimately this makes the class very linear and lacking variety in combat. In addition there are minor fixes to Celestine specific skills and those shared with Nihilism proposed.
Skillset: Sacraments / Tarot
Skill: Judgement / Soulless
Backround: Most combat focused Celestines take Tarot as their tertiary skill set.
Problem: Celestine combat is too uniform. Though both of these are combat viable and effective, functionally they are the same skill, a 'auto kill after time' with variables changed. Soulless requires a 'temporary sacrifice of offense for benefit later' with soulless rubs while Judgment costs power.
Solution: Keep both skills as they are. Add a new kill mechanism to Celestialism that is not like Absolve, Judgment, or Soulless to give the class more diversity in combat strategies.
Potential Roadblock: Balancing of new skill against Nihilist skillset.
Skillset: Celestialism/Nihilism
Skill: Absolve/Wrack
Problem 1: The high cost of entry for combat is a problem for both guilds seeking a growth in their numbers of PvP oriented players. Both Absolve/Wrack are kill conditions that are significant for their respective classes. Both require spending credits to become transcendent in Celestialism/Nihilism to obtain. Contrast this with Soulless (Tarot) and Judgement (Celestialism) which are powerful kill conditions that do not require becoming transcendent in their respective skills.
Solution: Have Divine become the skill at transcendent and move Absolve to take its place.
Problem 2: Absolve is almost never used successfully for 1 on 1 PvP against warriors/monks, given that the attack abilities of those classes' skill sets do not require mana. Absolve can be used in group combat successfully, but it is difficult to do so against warriors/monks, for the reasons mentioned above. Thus this skill limits Celestines to using Judgment/Soulless kill methods against warriors/monks, given that those classes often have so many hitpoints, damage kills are untenable. Ultimately this results in situation where a Celestine only has one kill condition available (Judgement/Soulless) to use against warriors/monks, which is uninteresting.
For reference here is a partial list of abilities accessible to monks/warriors that require mana: Mindfire (Harmony-Monks), Wind Mantra (Harmony-Monks), Surge (Athletics-Warriors). However Warriors also have access to Transmute (Athletics) and Monks to Heartfire (Harmony) both of which replenish mana, which have the potential to negate Celestine's current mana draning abilities (Amissio).
Warriors/Monks should be more threatened by Celestine based mana draining attacks to make Absolve a viable combat strategy.
Solution 1: Increase the mana loss caused by Amissio. This may be a problem balancing against the other classes.
Solution 2: Add mana loss when using 'symbol strike' against an opponent.
Solution 3: Some new ability that causes mana loss when endurance is used (is endurance a primary necessity of warriors/monks?).
Skillset: Sacraments
Skill: Inquisition
Problem: Pulling off the Heretic/Infidel/Inquisition combination requires a fast power regeneration rate to successfully work. It is possible to obtain Inquisition by spending credits but not be able to use it unless Discipline (time for power regeneration) is increased as well to at least Adept. Thus this is a --hidden cost-- of Inquisition for the consumer.
Solution 1: Lower power requirement of inquisition so that Inept Discipline can successfully use the skill
Solution 2: Leave skill as is. Write in AB Celestialism help file that a certain discipline threshold is required to use the skill.
Solution 3: Lower power requirement of inquisition so that Inept Discipline can successfully use the skill. Make timing of 'aura opening' for inquisition random so it cannot be predicted and scripted for. Or some other potential change to the mechanism.
Skillset: Celestialism/Nihilism
Skill: Archangel/Archdemon
Problem: Not used. Thoros and Talkan, noted Celestine and Nihilist combatants, have both stated they have not used the seven affliction slot maximum given by the skill.
For reference Thoros has stated at most he has used four affliction slots which is more
than covered by the Angel/Demon skills (5 slots).
Solution: Replace with a different skill.
the feasibility of the solutions mentioned. This is also to open the debate of how to make Celestines more combat diverse, since Nihilists/Ur'guard now have the Darkmark strategy which appears pretty interesting.
Celestines as a Guardian class have some issues within its skills leading to a dearth of combat strategies, primarily against monks and warriors. Ultimately this makes the class very linear and lacking variety in combat. In addition there are minor fixes to Celestine specific skills and those shared with Nihilism proposed.
Skillset: Sacraments / Tarot
Skill: Judgement / Soulless
Backround: Most combat focused Celestines take Tarot as their tertiary skill set.
Problem: Celestine combat is too uniform. Though both of these are combat viable and effective, functionally they are the same skill, a 'auto kill after time' with variables changed. Soulless requires a 'temporary sacrifice of offense for benefit later' with soulless rubs while Judgment costs power.
Solution: Keep both skills as they are. Add a new kill mechanism to Celestialism that is not like Absolve, Judgment, or Soulless to give the class more diversity in combat strategies.
Potential Roadblock: Balancing of new skill against Nihilist skillset.
Skillset: Celestialism/Nihilism
Skill: Absolve/Wrack
Problem 1: The high cost of entry for combat is a problem for both guilds seeking a growth in their numbers of PvP oriented players. Both Absolve/Wrack are kill conditions that are significant for their respective classes. Both require spending credits to become transcendent in Celestialism/Nihilism to obtain. Contrast this with Soulless (Tarot) and Judgement (Celestialism) which are powerful kill conditions that do not require becoming transcendent in their respective skills.
Solution: Have Divine become the skill at transcendent and move Absolve to take its place.
Problem 2: Absolve is almost never used successfully for 1 on 1 PvP against warriors/monks, given that the attack abilities of those classes' skill sets do not require mana. Absolve can be used in group combat successfully, but it is difficult to do so against warriors/monks, for the reasons mentioned above. Thus this skill limits Celestines to using Judgment/Soulless kill methods against warriors/monks, given that those classes often have so many hitpoints, damage kills are untenable. Ultimately this results in situation where a Celestine only has one kill condition available (Judgement/Soulless) to use against warriors/monks, which is uninteresting.
For reference here is a partial list of abilities accessible to monks/warriors that require mana: Mindfire (Harmony-Monks), Wind Mantra (Harmony-Monks), Surge (Athletics-Warriors). However Warriors also have access to Transmute (Athletics) and Monks to Heartfire (Harmony) both of which replenish mana, which have the potential to negate Celestine's current mana draning abilities (Amissio).
Warriors/Monks should be more threatened by Celestine based mana draining attacks to make Absolve a viable combat strategy.
Solution 1: Increase the mana loss caused by Amissio. This may be a problem balancing against the other classes.
Solution 2: Add mana loss when using 'symbol strike' against an opponent.
Solution 3: Some new ability that causes mana loss when endurance is used (is endurance a primary necessity of warriors/monks?).
Skillset: Sacraments
Skill: Inquisition
Problem: Pulling off the Heretic/Infidel/Inquisition combination requires a fast power regeneration rate to successfully work. It is possible to obtain Inquisition by spending credits but not be able to use it unless Discipline (time for power regeneration) is increased as well to at least Adept. Thus this is a --hidden cost-- of Inquisition for the consumer.
Solution 1: Lower power requirement of inquisition so that Inept Discipline can successfully use the skill
Solution 2: Leave skill as is. Write in AB Celestialism help file that a certain discipline threshold is required to use the skill.
Solution 3: Lower power requirement of inquisition so that Inept Discipline can successfully use the skill. Make timing of 'aura opening' for inquisition random so it cannot be predicted and scripted for. Or some other potential change to the mechanism.
Skillset: Celestialism/Nihilism
Skill: Archangel/Archdemon
Problem: Not used. Thoros and Talkan, noted Celestine and Nihilist combatants, have both stated they have not used the seven affliction slot maximum given by the skill.
For reference Thoros has stated at most he has used four affliction slots which is more
than covered by the Angel/Demon skills (5 slots).
Solution: Replace with a different skill.
QUOTE(Kaalak @ Sep 17 2008, 07:18 PM) 558863
I've already submitted this to the appropriate envoys, but since I spent the time on it and I appreciate eyeballs actually reading the page I've decided to post it here. I'd like opinions about a) the posed problems with guardians and the feasibility of the solutions mentioned.
This is also to open the debate of how to make Celestines more combat diverse, since Nihilists/Ur'guard now have the Darkmark strategy which appears pretty interesting.
Celestines as a Guardian class have some issues within its skills leading to a dearth of combat strategies, primarily against monks and warriors. Ultimately this makes the class very linear and lacking variety in combat. In addition there are minor fixes to Celestine specific skills and those shared with Nihilism proposed.
Skillset: Sacraments / Tarot
Skill: Judgement / Soulless
Backround: Most combat focused Celestines take Tarot as their tertiary skill set.
Problem: Celestine combat is too uniform. Though both of these are combat viable and effective, functionally they are the same skill, a 'auto kill after time' with variables changed. Soulless requires a 'temporary sacrifice of offense for benefit later' with soulless rubs while Judgment costs power.
Solution: Keep both skills as they are. Add a new kill mechanism to Celestialism that is not like Absolve, Judgment, or Soulless to give the class more diversity in combat strategies.
Potential Roadblock: Balancing of new skill against Nihilist skillset.
the feasibility of the solutions mentioned. This is also to open the debate of how to make Celestines more combat diverse, since Nihilists/Ur'guard now have the Darkmark strategy which appears pretty interesting.
Celestines as a Guardian class have some issues within its skills leading to a dearth of combat strategies, primarily against monks and warriors. Ultimately this makes the class very linear and lacking variety in combat. In addition there are minor fixes to Celestine specific skills and those shared with Nihilism proposed.
Skillset: Sacraments / Tarot
Skill: Judgement / Soulless
Backround: Most combat focused Celestines take Tarot as their tertiary skill set.
Problem: Celestine combat is too uniform. Though both of these are combat viable and effective, functionally they are the same skill, a 'auto kill after time' with variables changed. Soulless requires a 'temporary sacrifice of offense for benefit later' with soulless rubs while Judgment costs power.
Solution: Keep both skills as they are. Add a new kill mechanism to Celestialism that is not like Absolve, Judgment, or Soulless to give the class more diversity in combat strategies.
Potential Roadblock: Balancing of new skill against Nihilist skillset.
You do realize that us Celestines probably have the most diversity when it comes to how to kill someone? THREE ways to go about it, Absolve, Judgement, Soulless. Three. If anyone needs help in this category, it's druids. We are the last ones that need it.
QUOTE
Skillset: Celestialism/Nihilism
Skill: Absolve/Wrack
Problem 1: The high cost of entry for combat is a problem for both guilds seeking a growth in their numbers of PvP oriented players. Both Absolve/Wrack are kill conditions that are significant for their respective classes. Both require spending credits to become transcendent in Celestialism/Nihilism to obtain. Contrast this with Soulless (Tarot) and Judgement (Celestialism) which are powerful kill conditions that do not require becoming transcendent in their respective skills.
Solution: Have Divine become the skill at transcendent and move Absolve to take its place.
Problem 2: Absolve is almost never used successfully for 1 on 1 PvP against warriors/monks, given that the attack abilities of those classes' skill sets do not require mana. Absolve can be used in group combat successfully, but it is difficult to do so against warriors/monks, for the reasons mentioned above. Thus this skill limits Celestines to using Judgment/Soulless kill methods against warriors/monks, given that those classes often have so many hitpoints, damage kills are untenable. Ultimately this results in situation where a Celestine only has one kill condition available (Judgement/Soulless) to use against warriors/monks, which is uninteresting.
For reference here is a partial list of abilities accessible to monks/warriors that require mana: Mindfire (Harmony-Monks), Wind Mantra (Harmony-Monks), Surge (Athletics-Warriors). However Warriors also have access to Transmute (Athletics) and Monks to Heartfire (Harmony) both of which replenish mana, which have the potential to negate Celestine's current mana draning abilities (Amissio).
Warriors/Monks should be more threatened by Celestine based mana draining attacks to make Absolve a viable combat strategy.
Solution 1: Increase the mana loss caused by Amissio. This may be a problem balancing against the other classes.
Solution 2: Add mana loss when using 'symbol strike' against an opponent.
Solution 3: Some new ability that causes mana loss when endurance is used (is endurance a primary necessity of warriors/monks?).
QUOTE
Skillset: Sacraments
Skill: Inquisition
Problem: Pulling off the Heretic/Infidel/Inquisition combination requires a fast power regeneration rate to successfully work. It is possible to obtain Inquisition by spending credits but not be able to use it unless Discipline (time for power regeneration) is increased as well to at least Adept. Thus this is a --hidden cost-- of Inquisition for the consumer.
Solution 1: Lower power requirement of inquisition so that Inept Discipline can successfully use the skill
Solution 2: Leave skill as is. Write in AB Celestialism help file that a certain discipline threshold is required to use the skill.
Solution 3: Lower power requirement of inquisition so that Inept Discipline can successfully use the skill. Make timing of 'aura opening' for inquisition random so it cannot be predicted and scripted for. Or some other potential change to the mechanism.
That's a very good suggestion. I had no idea until it was mentioned on the forums a few days ago.
QUOTE
Skillset: Celestialism/Nihilism
Skill: Archangel/Archdemon
Problem: Not used. Thoros and Talkan, noted Celestine and Nihilist combatants, have both stated they have not used the seven affliction slot maximum given by the skill.
For reference Thoros has stated at most he has used four affliction slots which is more
than covered by the Angel/Demon skills (5 slots).
Solution: Replace with a different skill.
Skill: Archangel/Archdemon
Problem: Not used. Thoros and Talkan, noted Celestine and Nihilist combatants, have both stated they have not used the seven affliction slot maximum given by the skill.
For reference Thoros has stated at most he has used four affliction slots which is more
than covered by the Angel/Demon skills (5 slots).
Solution: Replace with a different skill.
That is extremely true. We have so many wasted ability slots in Celestialism with new forms of the same ability, adding more useless slots. I never use more than four investments.
Yeah, let's upgrade Inquisition, no one ever uses it. 
