Personally, I'm really for getting rid of the electoral college. As people have said, it's not fair that because of invisible boundaries, some citizen's votes have more worth than others.

I said that because of the thing you posted comparing the candidates' tax proposals. I was basically just pointing out that the bigger tax cuts attributed to Obama were in income ranges where most families are probably not paying taxes anyway.

As far as reading the policies, you'd probably have to dive deep into the IRS site. It's something I came across last tax season, I never looked it up online.

Edit: If I remember right, you technically still pay taxes, but based on your income you're refunded every dime. You could pay taxes and have all of it returned during tax season, or pay zero taxes and justify it during tax season. Hope that helps.

My thought about not voting like that is this, with the way voter turnout is, if all the people who didn't vote voted, they could change every election we have.

To more of the same, sure.

Edit: Let me clarify. As far as what I'm arguing is, it really doesn't matter for several reasons.

One: Those who didn't vote would, if suddenly turned voters, be just as split as those who do vote. I doubt there would be a meaningful push in any particular direction purely from getting non-voters to vote.

Two: It wouldn't change the fact that we are given two choices, equally weighted down under decades of crap that makes both of them poor choices.

Three: Electoral college makes it all moot anyway.

No, not at all actually. Basically, they'd just be a stone's throw away from a large enough voting segment for constitutional amendments. It's like the Futurama apathy party...

Alright, since I missed most of that, I'm sure there are many people in that large, large segment who feel as you do. And I'm sure there are people who think in that same way are in the voting group (I'm one of them, actually). What I'm saying is if those people who don't vote were moved to vote, you could even change the electoral college, most people who vote don't like it anyway.

I'm fairly sure that isn't true, though I don't know this part of the system well enough to be on solid ground here. If it is like any of the other segments of government, the will of the people doesn't mean anything unless it is expressed by a political movement..and any movement that would cause such a radical change to politics would be squashed the instant it started. Indeed, many such movements have been.

Why? The will of the people is filtered through the politicians, and in their control. If that will is detrimental to those whose job it is to enact it, or perceived as such, it won't be done.

Edit(again, sheesh, will she never stop!?): I know I'm coming off all doom and gloom, which makes me sad. I'm just trying to be honest about what I see is in control of a great country, and no..I don't have a solution. All solutions to this problem require that those who make the problems agree to get rid of themselves. Not very likely, yeah?

Yeah, I really have to agree with you on just about everything, except I think, for the most part, a majority of people are dissatisfied with their government, but feel they can do nothing about it.

Ohh, refunds. Gotcha. And yes, I agree, Obama's plan mostly benefits the middle class. But I personally feel it's the middle class whose needs are looked over the most when it comes to such things (paying for college, real estate value, etc).

Err. I think that too, casilu. Heh.

I'd like to interject here with a little word from A Softer World.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I was just working against knee-jerk fanboyism.

Well, at least we agree on that! Also, that picture reminds me of the quote my Grandmother put on her headstone.

I love how people are saying Palin was such a terrible choice. She did exactly what she was supposed to do. She came into the election swinging and now everyone is talking about her. Let's be honest, her speach when she accepted the nomination was the best from both parties. If people weren't going to vote McCain, then they weren't going to vote McCain, the VP wasn't going to change anything. Adding Palin to the ticket won't make those voting for McCain suddenly change their minds. She will, however, change the minds of many people who had not decided. She's new, she's lively, and she's controversial. She gives flavor to the republican ticket, because, let's face it, McCain is a little boring. It's the exact same reason Kerry picked Governor GoodHair, John Edwards. Experienced old farts that need that little oomph. Honestly, choosing Palin was a brilliant strategy and it could not have gone better. Who was on the cover of Time and People and every major magazine in the nation? Palin, not Biden. Who are they spoofing on SNL? Palin (Tina Fey was hilarious). Her experience and her politics might not be ideal, no argument there, but if the Republicans win this one...they can thank Palin for it.

No matter what issues are debated, or who discusses them better, Palin will win the VP debates. She's a damn good speaker and she appeals to a lot of people. Biden..doesn't.

Also, Obama annoys the hell out of me. Senator American Dream. He's the best politician of our life time, hands down. In fact, he reeks of politician. So bad that I won't vote for him. (among other reasons).

edit: This doesn't fit in with the current discussion. I just felt like posting my two cents.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nokTjEdaUGg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75QSExE0jU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=anxkrm9uEJk

btw I lol'd at that article, Tuek

Hm, well the thing is Celina, Palin was a great initial choice, that is when she was just announced. People were talking about, people were excited and she was also a trap for the Obama Camp and Democrats in general, to make them seem sexist. Her speech was good (I think better than McCain's) but certainly not comparable to Obama's, his oratory skills are excellent (keep in mind her speech was written before she was even picked).

But you're making a mistake in assuming she can only have positive effect when being talked about. The McCain Camp has showed a deathly fear of leaving her at the mercy of journalists. It's pretty clear they don't think she's ready, and she's sort of shown she's not ready when they do try to let her out of the bag. Look at the Katie Couric interview particularly this part. People were simply astounded by the blatant fillibustering. Her favouribility ratings have dropped pretty dramatically, I believe in some polls she's rated the lowest of the four candidates now.

McCain's lost some numbers because of her now. I don't think she was a terrible choice, but she's certainly having an adverse effect at the moment. In a race where both Presidential nominees have 100% recognition in the country, getting talked about isn't necessary, or even really that good if something negative is implied.

How much do you want to bet McCain's Camp will try desperately to withdraw from the VP debate next week?

oh this is a funny one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ9bP_AqHPg

I managed to find the complete debate on Youtube, search up yd2008 (you decide 2008) and they're all attached to that account.

The Anchor on the tv show had the same reaction I had.

I posted the hulu link, its in better quality and all one video!

Uh, that's the link in my post