I saw some funny stuff on discovery channel about alternative energy. The most amusing being that if ethanol use became wide-spread, the price of food would go up rather then the price of fuel (I think I'd prefer expensive fuel...), and harvesting wind energy could have affect the weather and environment, since you're removing energy from a critical part of the environment.
Also, awesome posts from Celina, Stangmar, and Dag, and others I may be forgetting that have their head on the right side of things.
Also, awesome posts from Celina, Stangmar, and Dag, and others I may be forgetting that have their head on the right side of things.
QUOTE(Anonymous @ Sep 28 2008, 09:33 AM) 563833
First study is from the National Corn Growers Association. Not exactly an unbiased or independent study. They do have a very vested interest, not to mention subsidies to protect.
Second study was from the U.S. Department of Agriculture which has been criticized for being overly optimistic in regards to the efficiency of farming practices.
Third link is again, the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
Fourth link is the best of the bunch, and is interesting. The guy is an economist though, not a scientist. I'll look at it more later, see where he pulled his values from. But yea, interesting.
There are studies all over the board in every direction. Everyone has their own opinion, there is no consensus. Maybe someone will come along with a good meta-analysis eventually and help settle it.
Thing about ethanol, why the subsidies? If it's really the right choice, remove the subsidies and let the market sort itself out.
Second study was from the U.S. Department of Agriculture which has been criticized for being overly optimistic in regards to the efficiency of farming practices.
Third link is again, the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
Fourth link is the best of the bunch, and is interesting. The guy is an economist though, not a scientist. I'll look at it more later, see where he pulled his values from. But yea, interesting.
There are studies all over the board in every direction. Everyone has their own opinion, there is no consensus. Maybe someone will come along with a good meta-analysis eventually and help settle it.
Thing about ethanol, why the subsidies? If it's really the right choice, remove the subsidies and let the market sort itself out.
The third link, while I know you don't like the source, does actually go through the different premises used by different studies, and they have a field day with the only guy to have said that ethanol isn't a net energy gain twice--using energy costs of modern farming while calculating crop yields from the 80s, including the cost of building farm equipment and ethanol plants without any explanation of how he came up with how that would be distributed on a per-gallon basis, things like that. (Also, if you're in the business of comparing sources, the guy studies insects for a living.)
As far as the subsidies go, it's to encourage people to use it. I think every honest person knows that ethanol isn't a good long-term solution, but it's a great right-now solution because nothing needs to change to distribute and use it. They're also really, really tiny:
(US Dept. of Energy spending)
QUOTE(Celina @ Sep 28 2008, 07:04 AM) 563697
Obama is the most well manacured politician I have ever seen. There is a certain irony when someone calls him genuine. He is the definition of "politician," and he will say whatever it takes to get votes, and he's damn good at it. That doesn't make him genuine. Nor is Biden stating that he won't attack Palin any sort of accomplishment. Obama disowned his church when videos of his pastor got out and people were going "Uh, wtf?" It might be easy to believe Obama is the good, clean, and honest man he tries to promote himself as. He is, at the end of the day, a politician, and don't fool yourself into thinking Palin is the only one that has skewed information in her speaches. The Presidency isn't about speaches and who puts on a better public face. The President isn't the British royal family. They aren't figureheads. I will vote for the ticket that will do, and I have little doubt McCain and Palin will do exactly what they say they will do. I believe Obama will brush the dirt under the rug and put on a good face, and the American people will love him for it.
Is Palin the best at interviews? Uh, no. She's not. Not at all. I like that about her. As I said, she hasn't spent years being molded into a politician. She says things that startle people because the people are used to hearing whatever will put them at ease and make them comfortable. The American Presidency and Vice Presidency shouldn't be decided on who had the best interview with Katie Couric. I know, crazy thought.
I'm sorry, if you want this to degenerate into a "McCain wouldn't look at Obama, he's so unfit for the Presidency" then there's no point in discussing. It's been fairly publicized that the man can't move his arms/neck all that much.
edit: @myrkr: What Dag said and...We all knew what we were getting into with Bush. We all knew that his decisions were going to be influenced by his faith. Don't condemn the man for what he believes and not backing down when people flip out like they didn't know it when he was elected. Yes, he's been vocal at times about his beliefs, but he's never tried to push ihis faith into law. You are still free to practice witchcraft if you want to. Does the President like it? Apparently not. Will he do anything about it? No.
Is Palin the best at interviews? Uh, no. She's not. Not at all. I like that about her. As I said, she hasn't spent years being molded into a politician. She says things that startle people because the people are used to hearing whatever will put them at ease and make them comfortable. The American Presidency and Vice Presidency shouldn't be decided on who had the best interview with Katie Couric. I know, crazy thought.
I'm sorry, if you want this to degenerate into a "McCain wouldn't look at Obama, he's so unfit for the Presidency" then there's no point in discussing. It's been fairly publicized that the man can't move his arms/neck all that much.
edit: @myrkr: What Dag said and...We all knew what we were getting into with Bush. We all knew that his decisions were going to be influenced by his faith. Don't condemn the man for what he believes and not backing down when people flip out like they didn't know it when he was elected. Yes, he's been vocal at times about his beliefs, but he's never tried to push ihis faith into law. You are still free to practice witchcraft if you want to. Does the President like it? Apparently not. Will he do anything about it? No.
Well, actually in his church for months after the 24 hour news cycles of Jerimiah Wright over and over again. He only left when it became painfully apparent that people wouldn't leave his church alone and would politicise it (make them targets, send secret videotapers in there, etc.) and when Rev. Wright went ape-
on national tv.Btw, have you seen Palin's church? Huh, I wonder why no-one's talking about that.
I don't think Palin is dumb...but it seems strange that you like her for not being very good at what she does, which happens to be, you know, politics. I don't think McCain supporters are dumb either, but there's no argument some Obama supporters feel that they're smarter than the Repubs in this.
Then again, some right-wingers can only see us (OB supporters) as kool-aid drinking, overly emotional, naive, coockoo, LIBRULS.
