silimaur2008-10-16 13:44:22
Anyways this was meant to be a serious idea for a change to Choke that would benefit everyone without harming SD offense. No one has yet been able to give it any real criticism and it would be lovely to hear an Admin (Charune/Estarra) perspective on it..Even if it is a slap down telling me its rubbish and will never happen X)
Tael2008-10-16 13:49:49
QUOTE(silimaur @ Oct 16 2008, 09:44 AM) 571595
Anyways this was meant to be a serious idea for a change to Choke that would benefit everyone without harming SD offense. No one has yet been able to give it any real criticism and it would be lovely to hear an Admin (Charune/Estarra) perspective on it..Even if it is a slap down telling me its rubbish and will never happen X)
While I personally believe that Choke is acceptable one vs one, there are too many instances in both group and duels where it is abused to the point where people just say, "F*** this, I'm not fighting in Choke". The reason being is that SD's have the advantage in Choke, this is especially true if you're a Hexen. You have Drink, passive Fae, and none of that is hampered at all when you drop Choke. The issue with comparing Choke's Retardation effect to the rest of IRE is that the other Retardation effects kill the Vibes in the room one by one. However, there is no such effect for the SD's offensive which is why there are so many (though not as much) rants for it. I'm honestly not as fundamentally opposed to Choke as I used to be, mostly because they nerfed dropping it in supermobs a long time ago (Sadly, people defended it as a legitimate tactic).
I'm opposed to Retardation across IRE, having fought against it and have actually used it. It's a stupid effect that should be taken out to pasture and shot in the head silently. I have no doubts that the administration are looking into Choke, but I doubt there is going to be a middle ground. The new variant on Choke is either going to be deemed still too powerful, or too weak. It'll be a long time before we find an equilibrium.
silimaur2008-10-16 13:52:18
@Tael: But what about this version? Which addresses the group issue, and the uncurable issue while still allowing it as a viable tactic 1 vs 1?
Tael2008-10-16 14:02:53
QUOTE(silimaur @ Oct 16 2008, 09:52 AM) 571599
@Tael: But what about this version? Which addresses the group issue, and the uncurable issue while still allowing it as a viable tactic 1 vs 1?
Your idea is okay, but I believe it's been suggested before on the lines of: Well, why don't we just have passively ticking aeon to compliment the SD's offense?
I think the response to that is either that the administration didn't want SD's having a 100% passive offense, or players just going nothx.
My suggestion for Choke is having a pre-requisite other than dropping shadows for it. You have to build up to it. Choke could have different effects depending on how many shadows that the SD has released into the room.
For example:
The shadows in the room have been gathered into a shallow swell.
This will just be the effect of what they do now. Offer the SD the ability to drink in the room, and possibly release the effects of their shadowdance abilities like Brumetower.
The shadows in the room have gathered into a large pool.
The SD can now use "Choke" to just aeon their victim, this will cost them no power and it will be similar to wane. However, some shadows will be lost when they use this ability. (This is so they have a weakness for the coming ability)
The shadows in the room have gathered into a deep seething mass.
The SD can now utilize the full effect of Choke, aeoning everyone in the room. This will cost power, and will cause the Shadows to eventually fade to a pool, to a shallow swell within a short amount of time.
Choke should be a finishing spurt, and not last as long as it does. This is to avoid pre-setup Choke's during raids. Also, only the SD who first called upon the shadows should be able to deepen them. Thirdly, I realize this was rejected once before, but shadows SHOULD fade when the caster of them dies, as should Choke. This is difficult to be coded, but if you can't code it with the way shadows are, then shadows need to be changed. I don't feel that the inability to code something a certain way is a reason to let imbalances continue. Lastly, I realize this may seem like a silly and unfinished idea, but if anyone wants to build on it, feel free.
silimaur2008-10-16 14:07:19
My suggestion wasn't passive? It was a new alternative and different version of aeon..? Confused
Moiraine2008-10-16 14:22:01
QUOTE(silimaur @ Oct 16 2008, 02:07 PM) 571605
My suggestion wasn't passive? It was a new alternative and different version of aeon..? Confused
He was referring to earlier suggestions of making it a passive aeon-aeon-aeon-aeon. I actually really like his idea here.
@Shadow: No, I know what you guys are saying. However, you can go that route and basically just make your system react to Aeon by turning off and spamming the cure, or you can do it the 'better' (much more work, much more adaptable in combat, becomes an anti-choke/anti-retardation system VERY easily from this coding) way which won't crap out if your ability to cure the aeon effect is hampered for whatever reason. I tend to go this route, since what the hey, you have to do it in the end anyway, to survive.
Unknown2008-10-16 14:24:28
Considering that LongNight is almost useless (a full coven and 50 shadows? Hellooo?) and it negatively effects everyone, along with the fact that when you compare Night abilities to Moon abilities, Choke is almost required for Shadowdancers.
It's one of the most useful skills a Shadowdancer has.
Unless Shadowdancers are going to get an equivalent to Beam, going to lower the rank needed for Succumb, and maybe some sort of Resurgem equivalent, Choke should remain the same.
- $0.02
It's one of the most useful skills a Shadowdancer has.
Unless Shadowdancers are going to get an equivalent to Beam, going to lower the rank needed for Succumb, and maybe some sort of Resurgem equivalent, Choke should remain the same.
- $0.02
Shiri2008-10-16 14:27:09
QUOTE(Myrkr @ Oct 16 2008, 03:24 PM) 571611
Considering that LongNight is almost useless (a full coven and 50 shadows? Hellooo?) and it negatively effects everyone, along with the fact that when you compare Night abilities to Moon abilities, Choke is almost required for Shadowdancers.
It's one of the most useful skills a Shadowdancer has.
Unless Shadowdancers are going to get an equivalent to Beam, going to lower the rank needed for Succumb, and maybe some sort of Resurgem equivalent, Choke should remain the same.
- $0.02
It's one of the most useful skills a Shadowdancer has.
Unless Shadowdancers are going to get an equivalent to Beam, going to lower the rank needed for Succumb, and maybe some sort of Resurgem equivalent, Choke should remain the same.
- $0.02
This is a non sequitur of epic proportions. If you want to play like that, you may as well also compare choke to Moondance Light.
SDs don't need an equivalent to beam, they have (example) brumetower.
Most people won't care about lowering the rank for succumb, but ok.
You have darkrebirth as a Commune - you don't need resurgem.
Choke is still OP even if none of this changes and should not by any means remain the same. If you want to upgrade longnight somehow, that's a totally different issue.
Tael2008-10-16 14:28:34
QUOTE(Myrkr @ Oct 16 2008, 10:24 AM) 571611
Considering that LongNight is almost useless (a full coven and 50 shadows? Hellooo?) and it negatively effects everyone, along with the fact that when you compare Night abilities to Moon abilities, Choke is almost required for Shadowdancers.
It's one of the most useful skills a Shadowdancer has.
Unless Shadowdancers are going to get an equivalent to Beam, going to lower the rank needed for Succumb, and maybe some sort of Resurgem equivalent, Choke should remain the same.
- $0.02
It's one of the most useful skills a Shadowdancer has.
Unless Shadowdancers are going to get an equivalent to Beam, going to lower the rank needed for Succumb, and maybe some sort of Resurgem equivalent, Choke should remain the same.
- $0.02
I'm going to start by dissecting everything wrong with that post.
LongNight is useless, for the most part, but that's not our fault. Poke your envoy.
If you compare Night to Moon, you have a skillset that is aesthetically cooler than Moon, plus has some GREAT abilities such as Steal, Succumb, Nightkiss, Garb, etc.
Secondly, Succumb is fine where it is. It's a strong skill.
Your beam equlvalant is Flight.
Night is not getting a rezz ability, this has been discussed before. It's never happening, don't beat the dead horse.
The reason why you're not getting buffs to Night is because of Choke in the first place. Get rid of it? Boom, you've got a wide open door for Night buffs. Maybe even to fix LongNight.
Shiri2008-10-16 14:31:50
Night is so not aesthetically cooler than Moon! Moonburst is one of the better attacks in the game. And it's more dignified than Night all around.
silimaur2008-10-16 14:31:59
And I just gave you a way to fix choke so we can work on the rest! x)
Tael2008-10-16 14:37:03
QUOTE(Shiri @ Oct 16 2008, 10:31 AM) 571616
Night is so not aesthetically cooler than Moon! Moonburst is one of the better attacks in the game. And it's more dignified than Night all around.
Dignified, sure. Cooler, maybe.
But I'd take Nightkiss over Moonburst anyday.
Desitrus2008-10-16 14:48:04
There's already a choke report with a suggestion from Estarra on the special reports Wiki. I believe once the core skillset special reports are finally wrapped up that it is next on the list.
Anisu2008-10-16 14:53:13
QUOTE(silimaur @ Oct 16 2008, 12:50 PM) 571550
OK Many people have considered choke a problem with lusternia for a long time, thus many attempts have been made to change it and also it has been complained about a lot. I am not entirely sure if there are any changes in the works for choke at the moment, if so i guess this is all pointless, but ill just give my ideas anyway for now...
To start with the main problem with choke and "fixing" it has suffered the problem of most people not understanding the opposing argument. Many people have cried nerf while others try and defend what they think is a balanced or necessary skill. The problems being..
People that don't use choke do not want to waste time making reflexes or learning to fight in it because it does take a lot of work and effort. It takes recoding your entire system to work in choke, possible but annoying. Why should everyone have to spend so much time so they can fight in this one skill? The answer to be honest they shouldn't have to.
People that do use choke think the opposite, they did waste the time learning and know that it is possible for ANYONE to fight well in it if they try and learn and can't understand why if they learned other people won't.
Now i have already stated i don't think it is viable for everyone to learn to fight in choke, possible yes but not viable. However when faced with this people again cry "nerf" which i have to say is not what is needed. Choke does not need a nerf, it needs to be changed. Some people might think i am being pedantic and that change/nerf is the same thing but i assure you it isn't and this leads us to the problem itself..
Choke is needed for shadowdancers to have a viable killing offense at top tier, they can't kill good combatants without it, thus when everyone just cries for it to be nerfed it isn't viable. What needs to be done is it needs to be replaced with something that has the same killing potential but does not require the basin to recode there entire reflexes and does not allow for one shadowdancer to take down 15 or so people at once.
Now for my actual idea. We do not want a new "wane" for shadowdancers so lets try for something slightly different.
Shadowdance Choke
Will Bind a target in shadows choking there mind and disrupting there mental equilibrium and distorting there perspective of time.
(I don't care about the actual description just felt i had to put something...)
So what does this mean..
The choke effect (as in the current effect) will hit that one person bypassing quicksilver can only be cast in a room in which shadows are released. To cure choke you "Writhe Choke" or just writhe if thats how you choose to. It takes a standard 3 or so seconds to writhe out of, plus the one second to get the command through. Casting choke would cost the user a base of 3-4 seconds equilibrium so as it is if all they do is choke you are out no effect so obviously it requires some setup! The first part being like impale+crucify etc you cannot writhe out of choke while off balance/equilibrium. This would make up for the fact with aeon you can give anorexia, with this instead you keep them off balance, brownie + epilepsy + scabies etc and of course the usual sleeplock comes into play.
This would cost 0 power, or 5 power to hit all enemies in the room, keeping its room attack status for a higher cost. The reason for its 0 power cost is that alone you can writhe it will do nothing to you, but with a cost it would be impossible for the dancer to keep the hexes/toad etc going with a powercost lumped in.
Sorry for the long post ive probably forgotten some points so feel free to ask questions etc or give more ideas! If its already being changed well bah who cares X)
To start with the main problem with choke and "fixing" it has suffered the problem of most people not understanding the opposing argument. Many people have cried nerf while others try and defend what they think is a balanced or necessary skill. The problems being..
People that don't use choke do not want to waste time making reflexes or learning to fight in it because it does take a lot of work and effort. It takes recoding your entire system to work in choke, possible but annoying. Why should everyone have to spend so much time so they can fight in this one skill? The answer to be honest they shouldn't have to.
People that do use choke think the opposite, they did waste the time learning and know that it is possible for ANYONE to fight well in it if they try and learn and can't understand why if they learned other people won't.
Now i have already stated i don't think it is viable for everyone to learn to fight in choke, possible yes but not viable. However when faced with this people again cry "nerf" which i have to say is not what is needed. Choke does not need a nerf, it needs to be changed. Some people might think i am being pedantic and that change/nerf is the same thing but i assure you it isn't and this leads us to the problem itself..
Choke is needed for shadowdancers to have a viable killing offense at top tier, they can't kill good combatants without it, thus when everyone just cries for it to be nerfed it isn't viable. What needs to be done is it needs to be replaced with something that has the same killing potential but does not require the basin to recode there entire reflexes and does not allow for one shadowdancer to take down 15 or so people at once.
Now for my actual idea. We do not want a new "wane" for shadowdancers so lets try for something slightly different.
Shadowdance Choke
Will Bind a target in shadows choking there mind and disrupting there mental equilibrium and distorting there perspective of time.
(I don't care about the actual description just felt i had to put something...)
So what does this mean..
The choke effect (as in the current effect) will hit that one person bypassing quicksilver can only be cast in a room in which shadows are released. To cure choke you "Writhe Choke" or just writhe if thats how you choose to. It takes a standard 3 or so seconds to writhe out of, plus the one second to get the command through. Casting choke would cost the user a base of 3-4 seconds equilibrium so as it is if all they do is choke you are out no effect so obviously it requires some setup! The first part being like impale+crucify etc you cannot writhe out of choke while off balance/equilibrium. This would make up for the fact with aeon you can give anorexia, with this instead you keep them off balance, brownie + epilepsy + scabies etc and of course the usual sleeplock comes into play.
This would cost 0 power, or 5 power to hit all enemies in the room, keeping its room attack status for a higher cost. The reason for its 0 power cost is that alone you can writhe it will do nothing to you, but with a cost it would be impossible for the dancer to keep the hexes/toad etc going with a powercost lumped in.
Sorry for the long post ive probably forgotten some points so feel free to ask questions etc or give more ideas! If its already being changed well bah who cares X)
the real problem with choke is really the LOL HERE COMES CHOKE effect when you are killing denizens/guards. And the fact there is no defense against it (like with aeon). It is pretty much the same reason why sap got changed to trees only again, it was to easy to use.
simply replace it with aeon and beef up some of the other SD skills if needed
Anisu2008-10-16 14:54:24
QUOTE(Desitrus @ Oct 16 2008, 04:48 PM) 571628
There's already a choke report with a suggestion from Estarra on the special reports Wiki. I believe once the core skillset special reports are finally wrapped up that it is next on the list.
I wonder if the influencing report she promised us a RL year ago will ever come, especially after her claims that influencing was fine
silimaur2008-10-16 14:55:26
@Anisu: I prefer a new idea AKA mine 
just mixes things up a bit...
@Desitrus: what is the new idea for it?
just mixes things up a bit...@Desitrus: what is the new idea for it?
Unknown2008-10-16 15:36:21
Mostly it seems a problem in groups to me.
You drop it in a group. Your allies even complain sometimes. If there are signifigant denizens hostile in the room, everybody dies. The problem with it isn't that it lets you "win" with one ability. The problem is that it is a nuclear option in group combat. Regardless of what else is going on, regardless of any strategy, numbers, or individual skill on either side, it basically says:
"We can't win so you lose".
Because, as a practical matter there are so many situtations where it just ends group combat. Probably killing everyone.
You drop it in a group. Your allies even complain sometimes. If there are signifigant denizens hostile in the room, everybody dies. The problem with it isn't that it lets you "win" with one ability. The problem is that it is a nuclear option in group combat. Regardless of what else is going on, regardless of any strategy, numbers, or individual skill on either side, it basically says:
"We can't win so you lose".
Because, as a practical matter there are so many situtations where it just ends group combat. Probably killing everyone.
silimaur2008-10-16 15:37:54
@Rainydays: Which is exactly why i made a thread with a new idea to change it? The point of this thread is to fix the current problems!!
Unknown2008-10-16 15:40:41
QUOTE(silimaur @ Oct 16 2008, 03:37 PM) 571650
@Rainydays: Which is exactly why i made a thread with a new idea to change it? The point of this thread is to fix the current problems!!
Leave me alone, my coffee machine is broken.
silimaur2008-10-16 15:50:15
I still haven't woken up, and its the end of the day...