Ok so a misunderstanding of the wording. Whether the essence is tithed to you or the cult essence pool the general statement is correct, that of if you are in an order that barely offers don't expect much essence. Since only the cult leader can use that essence then it makes it yours, personal or not.

The general statement is, but there's a world of difference between the two. Cult pool essence has no use aside from powering Cult powers-- it doesn't maintain the Cult, it doesn't help learn Ascendance, it doesn't help you with Divinefire or Zap or any of the other stuff. It would actually be much more useful if it fed your personal essence, but as-is... well... it doesn't really matter. You have to hunt anyway in order to keep your Cult going, so you might as well offer the corpses you hunt for some Cult-pool essence.

I wonder if we need to start purging topics....

I figured I would correct a few inaccuracies floating around out there - firstly, tithed cult essence only comes from offerings made by the Ascendant or their cult members.

Secondly, it was decided long ago that cults will not exist as a stand-alone entity, ie free from an order, in any way. While it's definitely not my call, I rather doubt it will change.

That said, Ilyarin should be more active, so that he might fully use his precious culty. Game-wide player-player grove gate, cult-wide refresh + shield, large influence boost to the cult - they, to me at least, look rather nice. Worth the massive essence it cost Eventru? Probably not - but I've always had a poor concept of the value of currency anyways.

I should be more active Maybe I will be soon(ish). But I definitely think it's worth the cost, even if just for coolness. I just don't understand why people are so critical, I think they're awsome.

This isn't an inaccuracy, we know this.



Again this isn't an inaccuracy. We are well aware of this.

In fact... That's what this thread is all about. Asking for the Admins to change that choice that makes Cults absolutely pointless and useless. Has not one Admin asked themselves "Hey, I wonder why it is that nobody has a cult, including those in Orders." I gather not, but hey one could hope that with the amount of them up there that the thought had crossed someone's mind.

I don't mind that Cults are married to an Order through the Cult leader. I just want to be able to have members of my Cult not have to be in the same Order.

Sure Ilyarin has a cult, that's great, He is one of 9 or 10 people with the potential to have a cult with 2 more people on the way.



This is the only inaccuracy in this thread.

It cost Eventru nothing. He didn't go out and gather essence, he didn't do anything other than show up and have people offer. This is one of the largest fallacies there are, when a god complains about "how much something costs them" because it costs them absolutely nothing other than to be a god. They will get essence over time, they will get whatever essence they spend back over time, and all they have to do to get that essence is. Show up.

It costs a lot of essence, certainly. Most of those who want a cult are more than happy to pay that essence themselves. So the cost of that essence is zero to the Order if the god takes them up on that offer.

I'd simply skimmed the thread, and it seemed pretty clear to me that, from the posts in the last couple pages, people seemed to think contrary to the former, and most people seemed ignorant of the second. My apologies. I shall desist.

Sure.

As far as I'm concerned, it's because Magnagora hasn't raised an ascendant who worships me.

It's not my call, but I'll throw in my two cents nonetheless. I've read your thread, I've read your arguments: I don't buy them. I like cults the way they are.

Apologies etc

Fain

I just need 10m essence for mine.

If as an admin of Lusternia your only thought on the subject is "Because my city hasn't...." then perhaps you should broaden your mind.

TBH you liking cults the way they are is really a point that doesn't matter. You don't ever have to be a player in one or a player leading one. This isn't about what "you like" this is about what is good for Lusternia as a whole. If stifling the RP of Ascendants to being a buff-bot in a close knit group of people they are already set to RP with, before they are Ascendant, in a role that was supposed to be about roleplay and butchered into another mechanical "who is the best fighter for the job" situation is best for Lusternia, then great, you succeeded. I kind of had hoped that with all the other mechanical "who is the best fighter for the job" things promoted in Lusternia that the one thing that was planned to be different, would be.

Apologies etc

Gregori

My responses are below.



If this is the implication you have drawn from my post, then you have misunderstood me.



My over-arching aim as a member of the administration is the good of Lusternia. My inclinations regarding this topic are, of course, largely coloured by this aim. I resent the implication that my administrative role is that of saboteur, and if you are well-mannered I trust you will withdraw it.

I hope you will agree that my taking a view contrary to yours does not automatically put me out of alignment with the good of Lusternia as a whole.



The premise of your thread is that Ascendants should be allowed to take into their cult those from outside their order. Correspondingly, I fail to see the relevance of this statement. For the record, I also dispute its validity.



I am not sure from where you have derived this assumption.

My responses below:



Perhaps I did misunderstand.



I think you misunderstood me here. I was not making claim of you out to sabotage anything in my comment. I was addressing the fact that personal bias is not a factor in what is right or wrong as a system. What "you like" or what "I like" makes no difference and as an admin I would hope you see that difference.



Of course I don't think you are out of alignment with the good of Lusternia because you disagree with me. I do think, as above, that basing opinion on personal like or dislike is not in the best interest of Lusternia. I also am more than well aware of the closed world that Admins eventually fall into where they no longer look through the eyes of a player and how things are affected, but through the eyes of an admin who merely see players complaining.



Yes that is the premise of the thread, and it has been argued that it should be no issue to have a cult within an Order because there are so many gods to follow per org. I dispute this because of the same valid reasons that there are no more Orgs being put into Lusternia. Thinning the waters with more gods per org, means that cults potentially become a case of 1 or 2 people in the Order who actually want to be in a Cult out of a thinning Order of 5 or 6 active members. While there are pools of people who do not want to be completely in an Order that would fall into the RP of a Cult, even based loosely or even tightly around the RP of the Order the Cult leader is tied to.

This does not in anyway hurt the Gods, as these people are not joining Orders anyways, in fact it helps the Gods more as it brings in more potential followers to the God through the Cult and it brings in a potentially larger pool of offerings as the only way to get Cult Essence is to offer to the God who the Cult Leader is tied to. There are no negatives to the God with allowing expansion outside the Order. There are only negatives to the actual Cult by not doing so.


Again, the fact there is only one Cult, at all, and there are numerous people with the potential to have one out there (again with more and more people coming) should be a telling reflection on the system. Magnagora not having ascendants is not a telling reflection on the system. It is a telling reflection on Magnagora.



You will need to clarify exactly which part of the statement you feel is assumption. If the former then it was from discussions with/among the Administration itself, keeping in mind that I have a pretty deep history with Lusternia, including having been in Lusternia since day one and when the concept of Vernal Ascendants was first brought up and discussed years ago.

If it was the latter, then I am sure you can look at most mechanics in the game revolving around Ascendants to see clearly where that assumption came from.

Just to clarify my "assumption", this comment is from the original Lisaera, who as most old players know was one of the main people behind the scenes in Lusternia.

It is this comment and many other discussions, including discussions that I am not at liberty to disclose for apparent reasons, over the years that gave older players the perception that Vernals would be more about Roleplay than Combat.

Now while I realize the futility and aggravation in trying to enforce a "Vernals no combat" rule, and allowing them into combat, the situation did not take a middle ground. As is common practice in Lusternia, it went to the other end of the spectrum. Ascendancy became completely about "who is the best fighter for the job" and anyone trying to argue differently has blinders on.

Cults need to be tied to a god or goddess. Period. You aren't an Elder God, you are a glorified demi. You aren't supposed to have free reign over what kind of cult you want. It's perfectly fine that you, as an ascendant must be attached and there for answer to a specific god concerning what kind of cult you have.

I repeat, allowing Ascendants to go all willy nilly with no ties to a God or Goddess, and in essence start their own Order is not going to happen because, thankfully, the Admin understand why that would be a BAD IDEA.

I view cults as particular aspects of the Order they are a part of. For instance, if I were ascendant, I would make a cult of Conflict built around Fain's tenet of conflict, but expand upon it and accept members that are particularly geared towards conflict as opposed to greed or hatred. They would answer to me, but they would also answer to Fain. The Cult would have similiarities to Fain's Order so that I could not claim to be an entirely seperate entity, but it would be slightly different so as to not be Fain's Order. Maybe the Admin didn't want huge cult followings for a player because that would take away from Gods, and really, we have enough ego issues in Lusternia as it is.

You are in no way diluting the god pool. Giving people more options without drastically changing anything is not a bad thing. Cults are for RP flavour and a less utility. You get interaction the the leader since the leader is a player and not an Admin, but you don't get things line shrine powers. You do get cult portals though (which I think is nifty).

This thread needs to die

I think the point of Ascendancy (and this is, by all means, just my personal opinion) just a flavour skill. Is it worth all the essence you pour into it for those flavour skills? Probably not. Demigods, Ascendants, Vernals, they have enough perks to make them worthwhile as it is. Will you find usefulness in every skill in a skillset? Probably not. (Lol Via)

In any case, the only point I agree with Gregori (and I can't believe I'm typing those words). Is that while the admins originally did not plan Cults to be stand-alone, they serve no purpose as just being another attachment to a God. That's just pointless and a waste of essence.

Plus, the admins have said they were never going to change a lot things, and that they were set in stone -- We've seen that change in the past, and hopefully Cults will be made for the better in due time.

Gregori doesn't want cults to be stand-alone. What's wanted right now is just to be able to have people who aren't in the Order in the cult. :/ Could be like the PR rep to bring more people to the god and maybe have a slightly differing focus than the divine. I know with my cult, it'd still be a Charune focused cult, but it'd be more about learning how to balance Moon and Hart rather than choosing one over the other and finding ways they mesh. I thought it'd be really neat to bring that aspect of Sarra's life into the cult but with only being able to have Charune followers, it stifles things a bit, though not completely.

Mine would be about the holy church of lolcatz.

I think irrelevant of whatever change there is, it'd be a benefit towards Cults. Besides, I make a habit of not reading over Gregori's posts entirely and skimming through them. Actually, I've done that for this entire thread. Ascendants, Demigods, and Vernals have enough perks as is, and yet people still find reason to complain! I do find amusement in this.

Die.

This quotation doesn't support your argument at all!

This is the old blue print for vernal gods: the one where players would be chosen to become RP Gods with full God powers, but no administrative responsibility. Of course it would be more about roleplay than combat! Necessarily. Can you imagine the outcry if I stepped into Acknor during a village revolt and slaughtered every Magnagoran enemy wholesale? The Vernal Ascendance concept is completely different.

It's not because the middle ground wasn't taken, it's because there was no middle ground. Either you allow a player to become a god with all that entails, or you keep a player as a player but with quasi-godly buffs.