-ponder-

So was proposition 8 just an argument over the use of the word marriage then?

Proposition 8 has always been about restoring the traditional definition of marriage. It doesn’t discriminate or take rights away from anyone. Gay and lesbian domestic partnerships will continue to enjoy the same legal rights as married spouses. Our coalition has no plans to seek any changes in that law.

The Issue
California voters passed Proposition 22 in 2000 by more than 61%, saying that a marriage in California is between a man and a woman. Earlier this year, four activist judges based in San Francisco wrongly overturned the people's vote, legalizing same-sex marriage.
The Consequences
The Supreme Court’s decision to legalize same-sex marriage did not just overturn the will of California voters; it also redefined marriage for the rest of society, without ever asking the people themselves to accept this decision. This decision has far-reaching consequences. For example, because public schools are already required to teach the role of marriage in society as part of the curriculum, schools will now be required to teach students that gay marriage is the same as traditional marriage, starting with kindergarteners. By saying that a marriage is between “any two persons” rather than between a man and a woman, the Court decision has opened the door to any kind of “marriage.” This undermines the value of marriage altogether at a time when we should be restoring marriage, not undermining it.
The Solution
Vote YES on Proposition 8 to overturn the outrageous Supreme Court decision and restore the definition of marriage that was approved by over 61% of voters. Proposition 8 is NOT an attack on gay couples and does not take away the rights that same-sex couples already have under California’s domestic partner law. California law already grants domestic partners all the rights that a state can grant to a married couple. Gays have a right to their private lives, but not to change the definition of marriage for everyone else.

Passing Proposition 8 protects our children and places into the Constitution the simple definition that a marriage is between a man and a woman.

Better off campaigning that all marriages become Civil Unions, than trying to wrest a word from the bowels of tradition and Christianity. By tradition, I mean that plenty of people who aren't religious think marriage is 1m/1f.

Except that in this case it is.


When you have two physical objects, that are separate, they can't be equal.

However, when you have two words, and those words are defined by laws, both terms can be equal. and in this case, they actually in fact are equal.

If you are concerned that the federal definition of marriage and the federal definitions of civil unions are different, then petition the federal government to treat civil unions the same as they treat marriages.

However, in California, and in california law (which prop 8 was about, it wasn't at all about federal law), Civil unions and marriages are 100% equal.
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No, they can't be equal. They may be legally equal in that both groups are afforded precisely the same rights and responsibilities, but as soon as people are divided into two separate groups by the terms used to refer to them (reference Germany of the 1930's declaring that Jews were a separate group of people), then they are inherently no longer equal. There is a handle, a label attached that breaks the equality, and this handle can be used to force further division between the groups, such as only allowing "married" couples to adopt children.

In California, can a church marry you and it give you the same legal rights as a civil union?

A church can't marry you in California at all. You have to sign the government paperwork with the clerk, and get a separate marriage license.

Fringe religious movements trying to dictate public policy always get what they have coming.

1. Fringe?
2. Do they?

Well, isn't the difference that a lot of people like drinking and that it had been going on for a long time before prohibition, but gay marriage has never been legal and there are a lot of Americans still scared of homosexuals who couldn't care less what rights they get? I don't know what kind of proportional relationship there is between gay people and people who like alcohol though.

Although I didn't know prohibition was voted in, so eh.

On the bright side...the election gave good material to South Park tonight.

Homosexuality has been around about as long as alcoholic drinks. You could make the case for American history, but the issues with homosexuality are a pretty distinctly Jewish/post-Middle-Ages Christian thing.

And yeah, there are people who have issues with them, just like there are (and remain) people with issues with alcohol. You give it about twenty years, a few old coons will die off, and the Stangmars and Daganevs in the world will find themselves missing the major voting block that helps maintain oppressive social attitudes. This will be corrected in our lifetimes, no doubt.

There's got to be some reason it's come up at a much later point in history, at the very least.