No, I assure you it applies to definitions of words as well. There is no one true definition of gender floating around in the mists of science that certain people can grasp. The whole thing is paradigm-based.

There exist multiple genders in various societies. I stated that tying one's gender (learned social role/prescribed social roles) to ones sex organs (penis, vagina, and connected organs) is incorrect and wrong.

The question I pose now is how do you explain or classify all those genders that do not conform to masculine/feminine given the definition so chosen by the populace. The definition that ties gender with sex can not.

Astraea has won the thread via emoticons. Game over, kids. Time to go home.

Sorry, words have variable meanings. So why does this matter?

And yes, most religious texts believe 6000 years ago, when man began to record history, not 2000 years ago when was just when we switched away from B.C. (or B.C.E. as I've actually had to come to use lately, tsk) to A.D. (or C.E. No, this is not Coming of Estarra).

We've also had this argument before on this forums, I can't remember who started it and really, I still don't care any more because it is -interchangable-.

Forcing one definition on someone else when it exists as both definitions really has no effect.

How do you classify and describe those who do not conform to the western gender's of masculine and feminine? The Native American Two-spirit, Indian Hirja, transgenered, and intersexed people. The definition you are all arguing for does not explain these people.

Think about it. Answer that question and you will see why tying gender with sex is wrong.

You can't call an Indian Hirja male or female, masculine or feminine. They are one and not the other. The same is true with Native American Two-spirits. Transgendered people are biologically one sex and have a seperate gender. Intersexed people can have both male and female sex organs, opposing chromosomes, and genders that are entirely different that their biological sex.

???

They are more than welcome to say whatever they want. I wont stop them, but nitpicking about a word will not change anything especially when the word means both.

Welcome to the English Language.

Don't like it? Speak another language.

You misunderstand. Two-spirit people and Indian Hirja are neither masculine or feminine. The word gender when used to define sex does not apply. The gender of a intersexed person may not be their sex. That is why the definition fails and is inaccurate.

It isn't about the English language. Its about the definition of the word. Explain how the definition of gender that ties sex with gender classifies people outside the masculine and feminine genders apply?

They don't. Which is why using the word to describe one's sex is inaccurate.

By the way, I speak multiple languages...linguistics is a heavy part of my field.

Edit: I should say I understand, have a working ability to read and comprehend multiple languages...speaking hahaha that is a whole other matter!!!

If your field is arguing with people on the internet, you must be a PhD.

There exist multiple 'differing' amounts of genders in various societies. Which means that each of those societies versions contradict with each other just as much as the concept of a single gender contradicts with them. They cannot 'all' be correct and one of them be 'wrong' solely by basis of being different, when they are ALL different. This is not suitable logic, it is merely a dislike of a certain usage.


I can easily classify them according to their own beliefs, because unlike you, I don't tie a single definition onto the word gender.

I just state that using gender interchangeably with sex is a viable way of using the word. In fact many have argued repeatedly that words have multiple definitions and uses, we are not stuck on using it a single certain 'absolute' way like you, because that just isn't the way it works.

Godah made the world = disregard other concepts of how the world was made, and 'truth' perhaps. Only this one way is 'true'.

You: Gender is only 'role' and no other way can be used, disregard a common use otherwise and what language is for.

Us: Gender can be interchangeable with sex, and it has MULTIPLE definitions. In fact I said in my first post that psychologists/scientists in fact do/can use it as 'role'. I have never stated that role is a wrong definition for it, only that it is not the only definition and usage for it.


Do you see which side in this argument is closer to Godah? Do you see how different gender concepts of different cultures contradict too, so that they can't all be right while we are 'wrong'? Can you understand that language is and always will be variable? In fact the existence of this argument in the first place should pretty much give out a big blinking sign that, hey, there are different ideas/uses that exist about this word gender.

Art History, Museum Studies, Africana Studies...with an emphasis on Race, Class, and Gender (go figure).

My undergraduate was in painting and art history: Traditional Asian Art History with emphasis on asian influence on western arts. Oh, and Pschology...I'm about 12 units short of a B.A. but I hated the crap, I.E. Statistics.

Holy crap, every word can only have one definition?

Omedetou.

Le réalité et toi, vous ne vous entendez pas, n'est-ce pas?

Thegidu. Kwaheri.

Vel...

I think gender and gender roles are two different, albiet very similar things.

However, you didn't answer the question how your incorrect definition of gender classifies people of other cultures- who have multiple genders- which is precisely why I say that using gender as a synonym for sex is inaccurate.

Two-spirit
Hirja
Transexual
Intersexed

----Thse four simple examples do not fit with that definition. Two-spirits are neither male or female. Hirja are of the Male with a third (you might say neautral gender when it comes to gender roles). Intersexed people can be both male and female with entirely different genders.----

I've never said that. What I said was that using Gender as a synonym for sex is inaccurate.

Which brings me to my point. Why do we even care?

Ask a Transgendered person for their gender when you mean sex and see what happens, or a butch lesbian. Ask an intersexed person what their "gender" is when you mean sex and you likely won't get male or female.

You should care because tying gender with sex is a method of control that maintains and upholds oppressive and discriminatory traditions within western society/consciousness.

This is quoting you. ^




This second one is me, such an intriguing concept of multiple potential definitions. I'm not discussing with you anymore, you don't understand language and I don't think you are really reading anything, because I have stated multiple times about having multiple definitions. While you keep acting like I keep saying there is one single definition, and that it is solely male + female tied only to physical features. You are the only one here saying that there is one single definition, I on the other hand could easily fit those examples into the definition of gender, because I realize that the word can encompass multiple things. It's one of the interesting things about language.

Multiple cultures have different definitions of what gender is, I'm betting that the indians even had a different word for it than gender. Gender is the english word and thusly encompasses english definitions firstly over the definitions of other cultures. Those other definitions of 'gender' have little to do with the english definition except in so far as we use that word to hold those ideas too. Our words might often be used in different ways than their words, like we might have special sayings that make sense to us in english but wouldn't make sense to someone in another language, because though there is similar tied meanings, they are still not quite fully the same.


I should ask a transgendered friend of mine if she cares about the fact gender is used interchangeably with sex in that way. I bet she won't care.

Synonyms are the tools of the oppressors, gotcha.