I understand that words can have multiple meanings. However, the issue is using gender to define sex. To use that definition is inaccurate and wrong. The definition of the "english" word gender (its Greek in origin by the way and they used it correctly) does not accurately describe genders of other socieities. Which is why using it for that single definition is wrong. BE CLEAR: I am not saying there is one definition of the word. I am saying that using the word to define sex is wrong.

Once again, would you call an African or African American a Negro...that was a word used to describe black skinned people. It is still in the dictionary, but is the definition of Negro a word you would use to describe a black/brown skinned person? Doubtful.

Umm, negroid and related words are based on obsolete science but if you're making the case that being politically incorrect alters a definition such that it's no longer applicable in its folk linguistics usage you're going to run into a lot of trouble with words like "gay" as well.

Negro = potentially offensive though, Gender is not so much, there is entirely different reasons for using one or the other. This is where your arguments keep going horribly wrong, you bring up stuff that isn't really related at all because it has entirely different circumstances. I believe that is what is called a 'strawman' argument. Also though it is 'Greek in origin' it is adopted by English into an English version of the word.



for example:

Genders

There are three genders in Greek: masculine, feminine, and neuter. All nouns have a specific gender, but contrary to English, even things (including concrete objects and abstract ideas) can be masculine, feminine, or neuter, and there is no way to predict the gender from the semantics of the noun a point that causes a lot of frustration to learners of Greek. For example, the wall is masculine, the door feminine, and the floor neuter. Native speakers of English typically make a strong association between the concepts masculine ↔ man and between feminine ↔ woman. Native speakers of Greek learn to associate the gender as something inherent to each specific noun, adjective, article, etc., and do not make such a strong association. So, we say that English has “natural gender”, whereas Greek has “formal gender”. (Many other Indo-European languages, such as French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish, etc., also have formal gender.) Gender names in Greek: αρσενικό (masculine), θηλυκό (feminine), ουδέτερο (neuter).



This goes to show that the English version of Gender and Greek version of gender are somewhat different. The definition of the 'English' word gender is not solely the physical features, that's the thing you miss. The definition of the english word gender is not just 'the' definition but 'multiple' definitions, of which work both for your concept and for the common usage you hate so much.




I mean, sex to me is more so the physical act with a partner than of the physical make up of someone. Gender to me is two-fold and encompasses a physical state (male or female) as well as a mental/spiritual state.

Hell, I personally consider myself as being of the male gender in physical body and of male/female/neither in mental/spiritual sense. I actually feel uncomfortable being constantly in a male body (wish gilded mirror was real ), so how is this way of using gender some big 'control' over the way we think if I use it perfectly fine in that way and am in fact not too well fitting into that control?

Besides, it isn't being used to define 'sex' it is being used to convey it (this is what words do!). Masculine is usually viewed as male-ish, while feminine is usually viewed as female-ish, when we say something is of male or female gender in place of sex, we are saying it is masculine or feminine in form. Even in the greek form it has masculine and feminine involved, hell objects can be masculine/feminine/neither so that seems to convey to me that there is probably some physical sense to the term as well (it's easily possible that gender was in fact created in part by viewing physical sex in the first place, considering the prominence of masculine and feminine in most sets of gender).


Anyways, let's just stop this (I'm bad at doing so when things keep going ) Obviously things will go nowhere. You aren't convincing us, and we aren't convincing you. I'm going to bed now anyways.

"Gender" is just as offensive as "negro" in that it's a harmless word with a descriptive definition that takes on negative meanings (apparently!) in a social context. Negro is considered offensive by -more- people, presumably because there are more black people than there are people with nonstandard gender identities, but they're not totally different.

see below

Right. As former self described "Negros" described to me: Slavery as an institution created a racial and discriminatory class of people who up until the 1960's was used to oppress and subjugate black skinned people under the rule of white skinned oppressors. Negro in and of itself is a word, but what white people did to the people they defined as negro...is offensive, was discriminatory, and racist.

I would say that the melding of gender and sex to have one synonymous meaning is a byproduct of the same power structure that created the Negro.

Patriarchal Power System-in this case Christian based which gave way to a sexist and racist society. That society in turn gave way to classist, homophobic, colorist, xenophobic, and nationlist society that discriminates against non-white people who are minorities in the power structure.

Tying Gender with Sex (that single definition) is a result of this societies nasty "christian" hateful ways.

Ameri, you need to step away from the academic world for a little bit.

Meet real people, get to know the world around you. It will be good for you, and will help you become more "well rounded."

As a completley unrelated point... Did you know that if you spell out Xmas, then you will get cooties? You will also subject yourself to "the man" (whom is actually a transgendered hermaphodite insecure of thier own power), and might even allow vampires and big brother to enter your house when you least expect it.

I live in one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world. I've travelled around the world and there is a reason why educated people - those like medical professionals who correctly use gender for what it is- do not refer to gender as sex.

I don't believe in the man.

I honestly think you are too busy wrapped up in this imaginary argument in your head that you aren't actually bothering to read and comprehend.

Gender CAN mean the same thing as SEX. It is not, however, restricted to that singular meaning. It's fairly apparent that your beef if with society and the church, apparently, so take it up with them. That however, does not change the fact that the english language lists gender and sex as synonyms. For example, where I come from you can call a cup a glass even if it's made out of plastic. That doesn't mean we dislike plastic or that their is a sordid history surrounding the cup. It's simply a cup. And a glass. It's both, and both words can be used to mean the same thing...or different things. The two spirit mug and the transexual jug can call themselves whatever they want.

Guys, just leave the troll alone and it will eventually tire itself out and go away.

However, that two-spirit person and transexual person do not fit under -that- definition of gender. Which is precisely why I say using it so is inaccurate. I do not think it is restricted to any one meaing, but should -not- be used to describe sex. It is not sex, if you or any other person of the "populace" uses it so you are wrong.

Using gender to describe sex ties masculine and feminine with male and female. This is not the case and does not sufficiently include other genders.

Actually, we are correct because we are using the dictionary, which is accepted as proper english. You're going to have to understand that your opinion on this matter is not a fact you can dictate. You're also going to have to understand that words can have multiple definitions, and "gender" and "sex" can mean the same thing if the speaker chooses for them to, but you are free to use gender in your elite corner of the world to define someone's role in society and not their genetics, because that is an acceptable use of the word as well.

Okay, I'll stick with the cup/glass metaphor.

Here's a plastic cup. It is both a cup and a glass, despite it's charming pink plastic exterior.

Now look. This is glass. It's clear, and makes a lovely window.

Now, when I am drinking out of the glass/cup...the window can still be called glass. It doesn't cease to be glass simply because I'm using the word "glass" in a different situation to describe the cup. It is simply that these two very different things can both be described as "glass."

aka: "Gender" does not cease to be a synonym for "sex" because you are using a different definition of "gender" to describe Sam(antha) Transexual. It simply takes on a seperate, and equally valid, meaning for you during that conversation.

Nonono, this is much better. Good trolling is like being a matador, and this one has painted itself red and is arse naked in the running of the bulls. Watch how fast it's gone to hell since the first page.

Edit: Seriously, look at the difference in quality. Exeryte's response on the first page to me? Made me RAGE, for five odd seconds. This one has had them all going since it started.

It seems like you are now looking for a change in public opinion and how people interpret the word in western culture. In western culture male and female have been considered the only two acceptable sexes for many years and the term gender still refers only to male or female. I think things will change but it'll take a lot of time before the term gender covers more then just male or female. Your argument of a two-spirit person is not correct either as the argument has focused on gender as used in western culture. In Native American culture using gender to describe only males or females would be incorrect because they recognized the idea of a person with a male and female spirit. It seems like the use of gender would also vary depending on the tribe. Same thing if you went to India, they have long recognized the Hijra as a 3rd gender. Using gender to refer to just male or female would be incorrect in India.

Gender began to be tied with sex in the 1850's, earliest, and really took charge in the 20th century. This is a new definition of the word.

"In western culture male and female have been considered the only two acceptable sexes"- there are only two sexes, wth are you talking about...intersexed people are neither male or female.

English is not a language spoken in only western cultures. Therefore, its definition needs to include everyone.

"In Native American culture using gender to describe only males or females would be incorrect because they recognized (THEY STILL LIVE) the idea of a person with a male and female spirit." NO NO NO TWO SPIRIT IS NOT ABOUT MALE AND FEMALE it is not about SEX...it is a third gender and has nothing to do with being male or female.

If it is incorrect to use gender in India, as you stated, it would be incorrect here. Gender is not tied to sex, is not determined by sex, and does not describe the sex of an organism.

*sings* And this wooooord you cannot change! *guitar solo for five minutes*

Tomato.... Tomatoe...?

AGAIN FROM THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION:

What do we mean by "sex" and "gender"?
Sometimes it is hard to understand exactly what is meant by the term “gender”, and how it differs from the closely related term “sex”.

"Sex” refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

“Gender” refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

To put it another way:

“Male” and “female” are sex categories, while “masculine” and “feminine” are gender categories.

Aspects of sex will not vary substantially between different human societies, while aspects of gender may vary greatly.

Some examples of sex characteristics :

Women can menstruate while men cannot
Men have testicles while women do not
Women have developed breasts that are usually capable of lactating, while men do not
Men generally have more massive bones than women
Some examples of gender characteristics :

In the United States (and most other countries), women earn significantly less money than men for similar work
In Viet Nam, many more men than women smoke, as female smoking has not traditionally been considered appropriate
In Saudi Arabia men are allowed to drive cars while women are not
In most of the world, women do more housework than men

Whenever I see Sex on a form, I write yes.