Actually, the Bardics are supposed to be written as if your character wrote them. That's why you can submit a story from each one of your alts and they all could have a chance to win (I ISSUE ME asked about that to be sure). It's why your character gets an honors line for winning a prize.

The only thing OOC about the Bardics are the credits.

Ooooohhh... see, that explains why my portrayal of the Shadow Court as the group "Public Enemy" never won anything. Arel was Flava Flav. I must have submitted that like eighteen times. I thought it was just because of my repeated use of the word "biznatch," but you can't censor great art!

RULES
-----
Written Contest entries must
1 - be original works (literature, history, poetry, or philosophy.)
2 - be distinctly Lusternian*, within the proper mythology, culture and
worldview.

Are you absolutely sure that it is supposed to be written from a specific character's point of view? There's absolutely nothing in the help file discussing this, and plenty of things have been written for Bardics (and have won!) that had nothing to do with how the character would have seen things but instead more of a neat Lusternian-themed story.

The Bardic itself is completely OOC as far as our game-world is concerned. Putting it up there doesn't get it in-game at all. To get it in-game you have to write it (which will associate it with your character when put into a book), and then publish it. And then get it put up for prestige.

Two completely different methods, really. There's no reason I couldn't write and submit a bardic from the point of view of a Nihilist. It just wouldn't make sense for me to CP it IC as a book (never having had my character live as a Nihilist).

Edit: And I see the honours as being more like the honours for being a "master cartographer"-- the people who did the early Lusternian maps. They only exist OOCly, you can't find them anywhere but OOC, they're an OOC resource... but the administration wanted to reward the people doing it and an honours line was an easy reward. IC you can't walk up to the guy and ask them to hand you a map, because it doesn't actually exist anywhere. Just like Bardics that weren't published via the in-game system for written works.

Also, none of those artistic works exist IC. You can't just walk up to someone and say, "Hey, you drew a really nice mugwump!" The character didn't draw it. The character may not even know how to draw. Or might have an avid distaste for mugwumps and not wish to associate with them at all.

If you read a little further down, you find this:

ENTRY SUBMISSION
----------------
All contest entries for the Bardic (written) and Artisanal (visual)
contests must be submitted through the online forms available from
http://www.lusternia.com/irex/artbard/. The name of a character must be
included in the subject line. This character is assumed to have created
the work in-role. This character will be the one to receive any
forthcoming reward.


I found that on the website, but since I know it has out of date help files, I went and double checked it in-game. It's in that help file as well. There's no reason your character couldn't write a story from the POV of a nihilist. Authors write from a POV that is not their own all of the time. Otherwise fiction would get awfully boring. While certainly not -everyone's- character could do it, anyone's character who is being put forth as an author of a story can and should be able to write from a POV distinctly not their own.

So it would seem the honours line is actually both IC and OOC.

just my pair of pennies.

EDIT: I realized it also calls out Artisanals in the above paragraph, I must have misread it the first time or two =)

Hm. That is interesting (and I did miss that).

I would disagree with your assertion that because the player can write, that the character should be able to write (or draw, or take and photoshop pictures) though, and the work doesn't even exist 'in-role' so I'm not sure about that, either.

I'm left wondering if it's legacy help text from the days before prestige books, really. They certainly don't enforce that particular part.

I didn't necessarily mean that if the player can write, their character automatically can. I meant more that since it's meant to be considered in role, that insinuates -that- character can write. But it's definitely possible it's an un-updated help text. I just meant it doesn't make sense to say your character couldn't write from the POV of a Nihilist since he/she'd never been one, if you as a person are doing just that. In fact, the very act of roleplaying is essentially writing from the POV of your character, which you yourself are not.

Of course, when I first wrote the post it was directed specifically at authorship, in large part because I somehow read it as being for Bardics only. I myself can't see it being applied nearly as easily to the artisanals, especially as 3D rendering and the like would be completely unrealistic from your character. I guess in the end I both agree and disagree with you. It would make a lot more sense for them to be OOC in all ways, bar the honours line (which I am beginning to believe is an OOC thing anyways, even when it's for IC actions. Unless each honours quest came with a supernatural tattoo or something. The whole concept of the information obtained via honours being IC makes my sensibilities itch)

On the other hand, it could be incredibly neat to try and limit one's submissions to things their character could have produced in-role. The fact that the works aren't available in-game could simply be indicative of the way the contest works, with winners being notified of their winnings, but no general outcome announcements. Hence the "Hey nice picture of a merian" problem could be overcome, and your character's "secret" obsession with sketching remains "secret" and the submissions only ever being in-game when you publish them there be the equivalent of shyly admitting to your friend that you write.

I admit that this is a lot of justification and hoop jumping to make the whole thing seem plausible, though I don't believe it's an unreasonable amount. I suppose without the input of one of the admins/Divine there's no way to know for sure.



ETA: By the by, this is just me spitballing and rolling things around. I think both sides of this particular coin could be perfectly legitimate (depending on what the Divine have to say about it, of course.) At any rate, just throwing around ideas and such, not meant to in any way be argumentative.

I would dispute that claim, though! It's a heck of a lot easier for me to write about things from the point of view of a Nihilist because on an OOC level I know a lot more about the structure and setup of the guild and their belief structure than I do on an IC level. I would further posit that this is true for almost every player/character (excepting the ones who guildhop extensively); it's far easier to pick things up via an OOC venue about how a guild operates than an IC one if you are not in that guild, on the whole.

Mainly because you pick up all the things that your character would, plus the extra OOC tidbits that get added to it.

Point granted, but that could simply make it more fun. It doesn't make the character less capable of writing from a Nihilist standpoint. It just means his writing would be less factual and more colored by his perceptions of what a Nihilist is. Which could be a heck of a lot of fun to pull off.

Yeah. A cop would obviously just know a lot more of the details and so on of being a cop and could therefore write a story about a cop much more accurately if he were also a writer. But, me, I'm not a cop. That doesn't stop me from writing a story about a cop using popularly known details and (if I were wanting to be more accurate) asking a cop if they might do this in that situation.

No reason a character author can't do the same thing if they wanted to write a story about being a member of some guild they're not in. Everyone knows some sort of information (assumed or otherwise) about every guild. That can be used to cover general things (accurately or not - in fact, it might be kind of cool to write a story about another guild that's totally biased with your guild's perspective on that guild. I might do that next time!). And there's nothing stopping a character from 'fact checking' their story by asking someone from that guild, "hey, would someone in your guild do this if this happened?"

I don't see why IC writing would be all that different from OOC writing. OOCly, cops aren't the only people who write about cops. ICly, Nihilits wouldn't have to be the only people to write about Nihilists.

And yet, the people who write about cops tend to do a whole lot better if they spend time with cops / researching the subject. Your character likely isn't going to spend time researching Nihilists so you can write a book about them for Bardics (and, in fact, for many Bardics this does not even happen). You write your book with OOC research (you even have people asking for clarification of things on the forums for their Bardic works), and you submit it for a Bardic award.

You don't see how there's a difference between writing something as an interesting story with the facts that you, yourself, as a player know... and writing something from the point of view of your character (which is going to be a completely different read)? Bardics are written the first way all the time, nor are they penalized for such. Further, your character might never have a desire to write about Nihilists; why should that stop you as the player from writing about it in an OOC medium (such as Bardics are)?

If you write your book IC, you can't use these OOC facts and figures that you know. Because, well, they're OOC. That is why they're different.

Edit: I'm not saying that you can't mix the two. This also happens when people write books for Bardics and then also submit them to the library in-game, such as I have done. I am, however, saying that they are inherently not the same thing because they are not judged the same way nor held to the same standard.

I won a prestige contest with the same story I won several bardics awards with, and I experienced no trouble with that whatsoever.

See the above edit. So have I.

I'm not saying that you cannot mix the two, but I am saying that you can submit a work for Bardics which has absolutely no tie to your character, that your character would never even think of writing (or be able to write).

Which is what they are saying one cannot do, because it is "supposed to be from the point of view of the character". While it apparently does say that in the help file, it is not an enforced rule. At all.

Why can't the character be able to write it? That's what I don't get. What's to decide your character's literary ability?

I would say that the player has a pretty good grasp of what their character can and can't write. Or would be willing to write.

And the character sure shouldn't be able to write a scholarly article about the Nihilists using information gained from the forums!

I still don't see why the need to make such a huge fuzz over it. Much ado about nothing and all that. Here. Take a complimentary chillpill.

The "need" is that it would be misinformation stating that Ongaku cannot write a book Bardic including multiple of his characters, when there is nothing in the way that they've been judging these Bardics at any point that would imply such is a real restriction.

He just can't submit his book as an IC-work for a library. There's no reason he shouldn't be able to write it for Bardics though.

(PS: Reading the start of the debate is a good idea!)

Edit: At least, misinformation as I understand the Bardics to be. The help file says one thing, the way they judge them says another.

I keep checking the thread for a friendly Eventru or Fain or someone who's come along and said, "Silly forum-goers, this is what it means." And confirm one way or another exactly what it's all about. Cause I still think they're IC and Xenthos still thinks they're OOC and I don't think either one of us are going to change the other's mind.

They might be too entertained to want to intervene!

This is entirely possible. I've noticed they are not at all enforcing the written by your character thing. And writing something meant to be from your character using info from the forums is a no-no, I definitely agree with that. I just think it would be fun to try and adhere to it, and perhaps submit some falsely colored stories written from your character's standpoint.


Anyhow, Ongaku obviously -could- write a story including all of his characters (I think Ongaku's a he... I don't keep up. Sorry if I used the wrong pronoun) but it would either have to be a completely OOC work, or have some very interesting shading of characters. I don't think from an IC perspective he could write an -accurate- portrayal of all of his characters... but how awesome would it be to write a story from the perspective of one of your characters, including all of them, but seen through that lens?

Of course, I don't even have time to really play right now, let alone try and write something for Bardics. But I hope to have time for all of that sometime soon.

Well, that's entirely my argument. I believe that Ongaku is absolutely welcome to write an OOC Bardic that is completely Lusternian-themed and flavoured using his characters, he just can't bring it IC.

I also don't disagree with being able to write a Bardic entry that is obviously slanted and from a character's viewpoint. That's going to be very Lusternian-flavoured and will probably do quite well! However, I don't think that it's required it be done this way (as many Bardics that win / do well are not). It's still an OOC writing while a Bardic, in my opinion, and is not IC until you write it and publish it in-character. It's kind of like... fanfic, I guess? Just from someone with an intimate knowledge of the character.

Unfortunately on an IC level none of your characters are supposed to have any knowledge of the others, so writing a book that includes them would be a breach of this. Kind of have to know them in order to use them directly. I think it would be quite plausible to 'make up' characters that act much like them though! Similar personalities, different names. Literary books here are filled with made-up characters, just like fiction in the real world.