Yea, well when 8 skillsets draw on the same 20 afflictions I think its time to be original.

No wonder you think the afflictions suggested are deemed to be the best of BM and BC in one skillset. You only think there are 20 of them in total.

Actually, the GladiatorFinish shouldn't be on a timer, since Axelord's Execute isn't (I think, at least). I'm pretty sure it's just they have the correct wounds and you go EXECUTE. Also, I believe GladiatorFinish should be changed, because gladiators are soldiers were completely different things.

Some of the actual mechanics behind it have to be tweaked, because spears are essentially two-handed weapons that are mainly used to jab. They can be used one-handed to great effect, but some of the more flashier things (such as actually parrying) would be pretty unnatural. Especially considering the spears used by greek heavy infantry were like 2 or 3 meters long. They were one handed, yes, but were very cumbersome. The DeflectJab I can't envision in a way to make it look natural with one hand, especially when you consider the other arm has a heavy shield. You have MasterShieldParry which stuns, which should be enough.

Also, with ShieldSpikes, you should be able to poison with the shield too. Mainly because with Axelord/Pureblade, their wounds are generally more grievous, to make up for the fact that they can only hit with one poison at a time. Seeing as you use mostly one-handed afflictions, you would need the second poison.

With razing, in the instance of Pureblade/Axelord, there is a special command, CLEAVE, that razes and hits in one attack, because of the lack of a second weapon to hit with when you raze. So, in order to get around that, you would need a similar skill to do the same.

Overall, it does flow well with how spears would've been used, but it does need a little bit of tweaking.

As for the c/p ordeal. Personally, you can't really make any more wound afflictions that would do something completely different than what we have. So ignore the people who say you just c/ped, because frankly, they don't have a clue.

I was looking more at the shortspear techniques used by the Roman Auxilea foot soliders, and some of the later post-Maritus Roman Legionaire Pilum work. So the spear length I am looking at is 4-5 feet in length. Also less distinct is the Viking and Danish spear work as well, which focused on using four foot spears with the heavy Viking/Dane round shield.

And GladiatorFinish is more like decapitate (pureblade), where HeartJab is the execute like instakill. It is named because I don't think the Latin name of the maneuver would be very descriptive, but it was the most common form of execution reserved for those who served in the Legion, or fought in the Arenas... meaning Gladiator's frequently received and delivered that type of killing blow. While most commonly done with a long knife or short sword, it was frequently done with spears to.

Oh, I didn't read it like that when you put the description for GladiatorFinish. I read it like it requires certain wounds to work, similar to how Axelord has the ability to Behead at critical head wounds, or use Execute. I didn't say you had to change the name, was just mentioning that we don't have gladiators and the word gladiator was specific to Rome. I could suggest something like "HonourableDeath" or something similar, and the syntax could just be something like Execute Blah.

I also mentioned the two-handed/one handed thing because I believe most of the polearms in the game are two handed and quite long, so they may have to be reworked to deal with the items being 4 to 5 feet in length.

So... what, exactly, is a solider? One who makes things solid? They'd be OP against aquamancers.

...wow my dyslexia was kicking in and letting me read as Soldier. lawlz

They can reset the decay time on forged items without spending weeks trying to make it work.

Well, not all warriors are human sized, Igasho and Krokani are much larger for example.

Also I like the idea, but personally I like the idea of two handed spears more, but that's just a personal preference. Otherwise most of these ideas sound good to me.

Two handed spears don't exist. There are pikes and longarms, such as the ranseur etc... You can use a spear two handed, but in western cultures they were all one handed weapons. Asian cultures were the ones who used spears as two handed weapons, and the structure of their spears are actually quite different then the ones of the west. Eastern spears were built lighter, longer, with a long narrow point, where as western spears are built heavier, shorter, and with wider points.

Don't tell that to Alexander, he might get confused.

Are you referring to Alexander the Great?

Because if you are, wait... what would your point be...

Alexander was the one who shortened the spears his hopilites carried, and gave them javelins, which would evolve to be the Roman's preferred armament for a Legionnaire... He never took their shields away...

(Took out line... decided I should keep it nice.)

I didn't say it was a bad idea. Just mentioning how I thought it screamed spartans.

Well, If that is true I was unaware but he is also the one that made his soldiers carry 30 foot spears. So that would be rather hard to use onehanded I would think.

After some brief research and a discussion with my soon to be husband, (Archaeologist specializing in Early State Development, so not an expert on this, but still knowledgeable.) I cam to a couple of conclusions.

At the beginning of Alexander's reign, the spear or sarissa, lengths are as much as 18 feet, and as short as 8 feet. Alexander, before the Battle of Issus, had created a new form of hopilite soldier using 8 foot spears, lighter shields, and lighter army to give them maneuverability the phalanx lacked. There is no credible mention of thirty foot spears in any record I could find except one.

The Battle of Issus it is said that the center phalanx was equipped with a 30 foot spear, however having read Diodorus' and Arrain's account of the battle, the two primary accounts, neither mention anything close to a 30 foot spear, and my soon to be husband did a read of the Diodorus account still in the original Greek, and saw nothing attributed to it. We could not find Arrain's in Greek. The account of 30 foot spears can not be traced to any source we could locate, although a few mentions, mainly criticism of the more popular Arrain account of the Battle of Issus say "Even with 30 foot spears, they'd have trouble taking the other side of the river bank." This is just doubling the average length of a sarissa and using it to say that Arrain's account is unlikely. The one account mentioned above is a blurb in a larger paper about the development of the pilum.

Majority of this comes from the following article

http://www.jstor.org/pss/503007

This is a JSTOR article, meaning you need to be a member or enrolled in a school who is a member. Each school logs in differently so I am not sure how you would need to log in. It does give a sample first page which covers the basic measurements.

The rest of the information was obtained from direct readings of the accounts of the Battle of Issus.

And secondly, despite the 300 depiction of a phalanx, noone actually used thier spears one handed (Not really.) It was rested upon the shield until time came for a stab...

In real war, the usually dropped it after the first jab or two, but this is a fantasy game, and we live by fantasy rules. If you really want to argue realistics, let me push you back in front of that 1000 pound roc, with proper physics engaged. Dead in seconds, is the normal phrase used here.

*demands proper roman legions, towershield-walls and all*

If they even jabbed with it.

Roman legionaires had two pilum, which were thrown.

Anyways, my point was more towards how the game handles the polearms. If the game handles them as two handed, as I suspect, then all of the mechanics would have to be altered to make them one handed, for this specialization. As I also said, some of the abilities just wouldn't look natural if they were one handed.

If we were gunning for realism:
1) Why would a bardiche-wielder use the handle to slash, when a bardiche was essentially longer, lighter axe? It was more of a cavalry weapon anyways, if I remember correctly.
2) Most spear-polearms were missile weapons. There are certain instances, such as the doru, where it was used to jab. The doru was actually designed to combat the phalanx formation, I believe. The long polearms, such as pikes, were also used as jabbing weapon (and in some cases slashing) but were mainly stuck into the ground to fend off a cavalry charge, so they basically protected the more vulnerable troops, such as archers.
3) A 4 or 5 foot spear, designed to pierce, would not give much room to hit with the staff for the blunt hits you put into your skill, because the actual spearhead would be a thinner shaft of metal.
4) Jabbing spears weren't entirely accurate, because you lack the ability to keep the spear steady with a second hand, if used one handed.. Jabbing with a spear, one handed, is about as accurate as hitting a cue ball in billiards one handed with any sort of power behind it.

I was teasing Krin, for mocking the use of spears in one hand. When we're trying to kill giant super-natural creatures, summoning water and rocks to do our bidding, etc.

Ah, reading comprehension I lack.

Anyways, just for the record, I didn't mean for what I listed as the realism to sound as harsh as it may. Really, I just meant that we need to forgo 100% realism.

Anyways, dude I'm always killing dragons and stuff. I live in a real bad neighborhood.

Couple of technical responses...

Pre Maritus Rome, there was no real legion, but a Roman soldier was more akin to a Hopilite then anything else. Post Maritus, the state equipped each legionnaire for battle with three pilum, a gladius, and a tower shield. (With the exception of the shield, this would be the primary 'loadout' of a Roman soldier through all three Post-Maritus's phases.

Phase I, Republic Punic Wars

Armor was not yet provided by the state, and the tactics to take advantage of the new formations were just developing. Key formations such as the V formation, Turtle, and Orbo have not yet been developed based the basics inherited from Greek military tactics. Tower shield was slightly smaller during this during and was not yet curved. Hexagonal in shape versus rectangular.

Phase 2, Early Empire

Early chain hauberk and helmet were supplied by the state. The shield is enlarged slightly, put into a rectangular shape and curved, creating a strong wooden shield. The gladius grows 2 inchs during this time period. The rotation of the line, and other hall mark formations are innovated.

Phase 3, Iconic

This is the stereotypical legionnaire. This is when they wore the scaled/splint armor, and also when the Roman Legion begins its decline. The pilum suffers the worse of the redesigns as it becomes lighter, and useless more of less, as a throwing weapon. The Germans, Celts, and remaining Gauls take these new pilums, and the spears that would be the hall mark of 800-1200AD combat find there starting sparks.


Of course this is moot, because as I mentioned, the Legion was a small mark of influence on my idea, from the Roman period, I was looking more at the Auxiliae which were not part of the Legion, but were non-citizen reserves. Specifically the famed Spanish Aux who were known for spear work, both mounted and on foot.

A note on Pikes... Pikes were RARELY dug in. The scenes in Braveheart where they were dug in, and in the accounts of the real battle this is fairly accurate, would of been and was a surprise to the charging calvary. This is why they did not stop, reform and attack the wings. (No account of the last minute pick up is given as seen in the movie.)

Pikes were typically a third or second row weapon under a Charlemagne style formation, or second row in an early Renaissance formation. The length was to allow the 2nd and thrid rank soldiers to strike enemies attacking the first rank, and was largely a hold over from the Greek Phalanx.

Finally, jumping around history here a bit, the Greek Phalanx would typically use the spear the entire battle. A hopilite armed himself, and in order to serve he had to meet certain requirements, breast plate, shield, and spear. Helmet and spatha were optional. Thus, the average soldier had a spear, and that was it. (Spears were also the single most common peasant or low middle class weapon because they were dirt cheap in comparison to all other military weapons, this holds true until the rise of state military during the mid and late 18th century. (The exception being Rome, which developed a state military long before one would be seen again. Prussia being the first after Rome, and then France giving it the structure we use today.)

Anyways, I am really off topic, but I also want to add, when I was researchign and designing this skill, in fact let me quote what I said is the influence....



I am not using Greek at all, and like I said, a sprinkling of Roman work. (A Roman legionnaire, I will concede, was more likely to use his Gladius for the majority of the fight, stabbing down over the shield.)


(Academic note, the Phases mentioned are not based off an academic work, but a categorization based on observations during a conversation about this topic between my soon to be husband, a professor of history at SDSU, and a professor of Archeology also at SDSU. They are loose observations, and there will be exceptions, each legion would normally add equipment over the state issued stuff, etc...)

(Poster's Note... I avoided the realism section of Enigma's post because I have not actually handled a spear in a western manner and would not actually know enough of the realistic handling of a shield and spear. I only know historically, this was a dominant and primary 'loadout' for a soldier, which again goes to the price of a spear, and shields were cheaper then armor. Also remember, in medieval style battles, your objective was to wound an opponent to take them out of a fight, without getting wounded yourself. Thus you do not have to be super accurate with the jab, just gotta stick it into the other dude, and hope he does not stick his in you. Not having a shield increases the chance of you being the stuck instead of the sticker.)