Debate with Elostian on Night and Colour

by Unknown

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Unknown2009-01-24 15:41:06
So, I dug through my stuff, and found something I'd like to share. But first, the context;

QUOTE
Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "What are you
doing?"

You get up off a long black leather couch.

You hop about the area madly.

A quiet chuckle emanates from the aether.

You have emoted: Caerulo glances around the room.

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "Are you going to
answer?"

You say, "Ah, well, I was thinking. Very hard."

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "On what?"

You say, "Mother Night and colour."

You say, "I'm sorry, I don't tend to trust voices that appear to have no
sources."

You have emoted: Caerulo continues to sweep the area with his eyes.

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "Everything has a
source, therefore your statement would appear paradoxical."

You say, "Ah, but I did mention 'appear', didn't I?"

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "What did you
consider concerning the colour of mother night?"

You ponder the situation.

You say, "When Mother Night's gracious shadows fall on anything, their colours
mute in respect of her power."

You say, "Also, Mother Night's favoured colour is black. Is it not true that
black is composed of all other colours? Even though I am not an artist, one
learns early in life that when many paints are mixed together, the end result is
black."

You say, "Of course, as I've mentioned, this train of thought is still in the
process of being polished, and not quite perfectly explained."

You say, "I've yet to have brought those observations to any conclusions."

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "Is night just
black or is it merely the absence of colour?"

You scratch your head looking for an idea.

You say, "So, is Night the absence of colour, or is it the sum of all colours,
hrm?"

You ponder the situation.

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "If night is the
sum of all colours, why do all colours fade to back when she appears?"

You say, "Wouldn't red tint turn black should you pour ink on it? Similarly,
Night's shadows would act as the black paint of the tapestry of the Basin."

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "Yes, but one
cannot remove the black tint after having added it. Night eventually retreats,
leaving the original colour."

Caerulo nods his head as he ponders carefully.

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "You ponder your
answers well, it would seem."

A quiet chuckle emanates from the aether.

You say, "Far too carefully, I should say myself."

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "How would you
retort to My earlier statement then?"

You smile and say, "As it is, I'm still thinking on it."

An amused laughter emanates from the aether.

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "Then ponder on
it, and I shall return for an answer at a later time."

You nod your head.

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "You consider well
and do indeed think deep. This pleases Me."

Elostian, the Enigma has bestowed His divine strongfavour upon you. It will last
for 3 days.

Comprehension flashes across your face.

Emanating from the aether, a sonorous multi-toned voice says, "We shall speak
again."

You nod your head.

With a flourish of your arm, you bow deeply.

You sit yourself down on a long black leather couch and make yourself
comfortable.
You scratch your head looking for an idea.


As I mentioned in the other thread, this occurred in the Shadowdancers' guildhall. And an awesome part of Shayle's RP is that she's a germaphobe. And Caerulo learnt that the hard way. He had to do a cleaning ritual. I don't have the log, but I still have my prepared script. I edited it so that it appears more like a log, but sadly, I have lost Shayle's response, so this 'log' is one-side.

QUOTE
Location:
A shadowed parlour.

You say, "The ritual will begin with a moment of silence for preparation of the heart. For as it had been words that started this, so shall sweet silence end it."

You have emoted: Caerulo bows his head and whispers silently.

You have emoted: Caerulo lifts his head and looks around the room.

You say, "The ritual will commence."

You have emoted: Caerulo points at the barghest, and as he does so, it moves in front of Caerulo and faces him.

You say, "The master of hiding, of waiting, of being unseen."

Staring into the face of the barghest, you say, "That is what I have failed to do."

You say, "He hunts in the darkness. He hunts in silence. He hunts, without his senses."

You have emoted: Caerulo takes out a small strip of cloth and wraps his eyes.

You say, "He hunts, with Mother Night’s clarity, for who can pierce through the fog of shadows but the darkness itself? And so, may her clarity of thought and not my mistaken sight guide me in this ritual."

You have emoted: Caerulo takes out his dagger. The barghest stretches, and bounds into one of the thicker shadows and waits patiently.

You have emoted: Caerulo points at the redcap, and it too positions itself in front of Caerulo.

You say, "The blood-lover. The blood-letter. The blood-seeker."

You say, "I used to view the redcaps as one of the lesser Night fae. They always seemed to be too obsessed with their precious blood and I’ve always wondered why Mother Night would favour them. Now I know better."

You have emoted: Caerulo nods slowly.

You say, "The bleeding of the redcap is not senseless bleeding. It is the cleansing wound, the wound to bleed out the poisons."

Letting some regret and anger seep into your tone, you say, " Just like how Elostian had poisoned me with his bright words and sweet reasoning."

Lifting up your dagger, you say, " To bleed out the poison of the mind."

You have emoted: Caerulo uses his athame dagger to deliver a clean incision to both of his palms. The redcap fidgets excitedly at the scent of blood.

You say, "The sanctity of the guild had been smeared. The lifeblood of the Shadowdancers, its secrecy, has been stained."

You have emoted: Caerulo kneels down, and smears the floor with his blood. The redcap eagerly approaches the tiny pool of blood.

You say, "Let the dried and the dead blood flow once again."

You have emoted: Caerulo stands slowly, and approaches the cauldron. The redcap brings a long, thin finger to touch the coagulating blood, and as he does so, the blood starts to swirl of its own accord. The redcap then scoops some of it and drips it into his already bloodied cap.

You have emoted: Caerulo dips his hand into the cauldron and grimaces for a moment at the icy touch of the concentrated shadows. The slaugh glides to behind the shadow cauldron and fixes her eyes on Caerulo.

You say, "Hers is the beauty of the Night. Truly, she is blessed to have her beauty eternally."

You have emoted: Caerulo pulls out a deep dark shadow. It expands rapidly to encompass the entire area in renewed blackness. The scent of Night’s power sweeps throughout in the form of cold and sweet, crisp and clean air.

Lifting your arms, you say, "Whose flaws can remain in the presence of Mother Night’s perfect purity? Her pristine ways will sweep away all defilement, all unworthiness!

You have emoted: Caerulo mounts the broom and hovers above the cauldron, circled by the three fae.

You say, "Is it not fitting, that the tool of a wiccan is the best suited to sweeping away of the transgressions committed?"

You say, "And now, to ground the ritual in the circle, the sign of the infinite, of the infinite power of Mother Night."

You have emoted: Caerulo spreads his arms wide, and he spins clockwise on his broom and a shimmering white orb springs up around him. The shadows circle around the orb in a whirlpool of black ink.

You have emoted: Caerulo summons all his powers of negotiation, and he entreats Mother Night to forgive his trespasses and to grant amnesty in the Shadowdancers. The spinning darkness is sucked back into the cauldron. When the shadows retreat, the floor is absent the dark pool of blood.


Removing your blindfold and getting off your broom, you say, " Although it had not been a joyous event, may this ritual have turned the thorn of Elostian into the glorious flowering of Mother Night’s power.

‘This is the end of the cleansing ritual.


On hindsight, I see bits and pieces that I can improve, stuff that I should have added, stuff that I should have removed, but overall, I am pretty fond of this piece of ritual.

Edit: Also brings back memories. Ahhhh.

Ok, fine, I know I'm just 18, but can't I get to reminiscence about the 'good ole times'?
Daganev2009-01-26 06:49:16
The conversation about Night and color is intersting, because you are talking about Color as a pigment, and the voice (Elostian?) is talking about Color as a form of light.

With paint, the sum of all colors is black. (well, more like brown, most blacks a just very dark blues) And White is the absece of pigment.

But with light, the sum of all colors is white, and black is the absence of light.
Unknown2009-01-26 14:48:39
QUOTE (daganev @ Jan 26 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The conversation about Night and color is intersting, because you are talking about Color as a pigment, and the voice (Elostian?) is talking about Color as a form of light.

With paint, the sum of all colors is black. (well, more like brown, most blacks a just very dark blues) And White is the absece of pigment.

But with light, the sum of all colors is white, and black is the absence of light.

True, but from which side? From our the point of view of our eyes, black is the absence of reflected light. But to the object itself, wouldn't black represent the total absorption of light?

Also, Elostian may know this being a Divine, but Caerulo doesn't. As much as he reads, Lusternian technology still hasn't reached that stage where scholars can debate on light waves and such.

In any case, this gives me a some more material to work on. Yay!
Daganev2009-01-26 20:50:54
QUOTE (Caerulo @ Jan 26 2009, 06:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
True, but from which side? From our the point of view of our eyes, black is the absence of reflected light. But to the object itself, wouldn't black represent the total absorption of light?

Also, Elostian may know this being a Divine, but Caerulo doesn't. As much as he reads, Lusternian technology still hasn't reached that stage where scholars can debate on light waves and such.

In any case, this gives me a some more material to work on. Yay!


You don't need to be a super scientist with knowldge of lightwaves, to know the difference between colors and light in photography (or just how to light up an articetrual piece), and the colors of pigment.

With lights, you can "mix them" (i.e. shine red fires, and blue fires, and green lights whatever), and find that you lose color tinting as you add more. With objects and paints, you can mix them and find that they always get darker and never get lighter.

Elostian was pointing out that Night was the absence of light which creates a "black" hue on things. And you were talking about Night as being black itself. Which was weird seeing you two talk past eachother like that.

Also, I think you are confusing the scientific properties of reflection and absorption, with the physiological properties that are easily recognized. (i.e., you can have a very reflective black object, and you can have a white matte object )
Narsrim2009-01-26 21:05:33
The real question is what is Crow's favorite color?
Daganev2009-01-26 21:16:11
I think I'm missing the reference.

any reason it wouldn't also be black?
Casilu2009-01-26 21:16:42
QUOTE (Narsrim @ Jan 26 2009, 01:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The real question is what is Crow's favorite color?


Knowing the old Blacktalon guild emote, I'll assume red.
Unknown2009-01-26 21:29:57
QUOTE (casilu @ Jan 26 2009, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Knowing the old Blacktalon guild emote, I'll assume red.

guild emote wot?
we have a guild emote?
Nerra2009-01-27 00:11:27
Don't go there, k'z'lia. For your sake, I warn you wink.gif Just invoke False memory. There is no blacktalon emote, the cake is a lie.
Xenthos2009-01-27 00:15:08
QUOTE (Nerra @ Jan 26 2009, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Don't go there, k'z'lia. For your sake, I warn you wink.gif Just invoke False memory. There is no blacktalon emote, the cake is a lie.

Sure there is. It's called Carrion.

Now, the old one...
Unknown2009-01-27 01:42:54
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Jan 26 2009, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sure there is. It's called Carrion.

Now, the old one...

What old one? There's no old emote. Carrion has always been there. You're crazy. I do not talk with crazy people. Good day, sir.
Xenthos2009-01-27 01:44:31
QUOTE (Greleag @ Jan 26 2009, 08:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What old one? There's no old emote. Carrion has always been there. You're crazy. I do not talk with crazy people. Good day, sir.

Aren't you a Geomancer? Or have you made an alt on me?
Casilu2009-01-27 02:13:46
QUOTE (Nys @ Jan 26 2009, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
guild emote wot?
we have a guild emote?


You did! Slashed wrist and saying something about how they bled for Crow. Very emo.
Unknown2009-01-27 03:46:35
QUOTE (daganev @ Jan 27 2009, 04:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You don't need to be a super scientist with knowldge of lightwaves, to know the difference between colors and light in photography (or just how to light up an articetrual piece), and the colors of pigment.

With lights, you can "mix them" (i.e. shine red fires, and blue fires, and green lights whatever), and find that you lose color tinting as you add more. With objects and paints, you can mix them and find that they always get darker and never get lighter.

Elostian was pointing out that Night was the absence of light which creates a "black" hue on things. And you were talking about Night as being black itself. Which was weird seeing you two talk past eachother like that.

Also, I think you are confusing the scientific properties of reflection and absorption, with the physiological properties that are easily recognized. (i.e., you can have a very reflective black object, and you can have a white matte object )

Ah, that makes sense now.

Although, isn't the colour that we see due to the spectrum of light which is reflected by the object? In other words, the spectrum of light which is not absorbed by the object? I don't take physics, so I may be using the wrong term.

And how did this because a discussion of the emo-ness of Crow?
Daganev2009-01-27 05:30:52
I'll let one of the science geeks answer the question, but the way I've always thought of it is as follows.

Photons of various wavelengths hit the outer shell of atoms of an object. These photons knock off the electrons into a "higher orbit". The wavelenght of the electron in the "higher orbit" produces the color of pigments. The wavelenght of the photon as it comes towards the object produces the color of the "light".

Incomming photons add together to create white.
Knocked off electrons add together to create black.

I know I have the science wrong there, but its how I remember highschool.
Casilu2009-01-27 06:18:59
QUOTE (daganev @ Jan 26 2009, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll let one of the science geeks answer the question, but the way I've always thought of it is as follows.

Photons of various wavelengths hit the outer shell of atoms of an object. These photons knock off the electrons into a "higher orbit". The wavelenght of the electron in the "higher orbit" produces the color of pigments. The wavelenght of the photon as it comes towards the object produces the color of the "light".

Incomming photons add together to create white.
Knocked off electrons add together to create black.

I know I have the science wrong there, but its how I remember highschool.


There are three main photon interactions. The one you talked about, called the Photo-electric effect, Compton scatter, and pair production. Photoelectric effect is where the photon is absorbed causing the electron to jump an orbital, the electron jumps down and the energy is released in a specific and predicted quanta of energy. Compton scatted is deflection at an angle and a loss in energy, and I don't want to talk about anti-matter, so no Pair Production for today. But yes, light waves of all colours combine to make white, and the absence is black. Electrons coming off like that is called beta decay. We don't want that.
Penna2009-01-27 07:01:50
The Basin is far beyond the technology needed to understand the interactions of light and color. All that's really needed is the ability to make tinted glass, and considering Jethri and the stained glass windows in various places... Any person who deals with design and decor (artists, jewelcraft, artisan, et cetera) would probably learn it as basic color theory and matching. Anyone that deals with colour would likely know how tint works versus light.

We can control spaceships, but not understand how paint and prisms work?
Unknown2009-01-27 12:37:49
@Colour info: Reminds me of what I learnt in Chemistry about why transition metals have coloured compounds. I still don't get it, not a physics person, but thanks for clarifying.

@Penna: Hrm, you have a point. So many, it is just because Caerulo isn't high enough in Arts, and isn't an Artisan or Jeweler, thus he knows little about light and colour.
Lendren2009-01-27 13:36:56
QUOTE (Penna @ Jan 27 2009, 02:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We can control spaceships, but not understand how paint and prisms work?

To be fair, the spaceships thing is an unfair analogy since they're organic spaceships and mostly control themselves, and since the MacGuffinsgnomes did all the inventing and just sold it to us. We're more like a cargo cult than anything.

Even so, Lusternia's never been terribly consistent about its tech levels. Artisans are already not allowed to use 17th-century clockwork gears, despite the presence of gears on the Lusternia website, the existence of clocks in the game, and the fact that Elostian keeps reminding us that there are computers and an electron microscope on Xion. I think we're supposed to be children in the playground: we don't understand things our predecessors invented, we just look at them in wonder.
Casilu2009-01-27 19:52:37
QUOTE (Caerulo @ Jan 27 2009, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
@Colour info: Reminds me of what I learnt in Chemistry about why transition metals have coloured compounds. I still don't get it, not a physics person, but thanks for clarifying.


I could literally go on all day, I spent all of last term studying photon interactions.