It's more like people used it sparingly so it didn't show up much, but now that everyone and their mother has at least a 20% dodge rate it's getting out of hand.

Plus bodyguard is a much lower proc rate, plus it became much more obvious stacking on harbs and particularly spiritsingers.

Well I sorta see the point which to me sounds like "More people than before are using Protection Aura because it does scale up nicely with Beastmastery Bodyguard". Likewise, I see how most people who recently started using Protection Aura due to Bodyguard will continue to do so in similar situations even if Bodyguard is removed. Still, is that a reason enough to completely remove all forms of dodge, save for acro one and make acro one fail when prone? I don't know, maybe you're right, but the process will be a nightmare because as always, group A will want balance, group B will be on the receiving end and will want everyone to burn with blue flames and die and then you'll get group C who will try to get through a change that would give them an advantage.

Envoys from every org and every class (including spiritsingers, the class that benefits the most from the whole thing) seem to have been in favour of removing the increasing amount of dodge abilities in this game. If there were any major objections I don't remember seeing them on the report. (Note that removing acro dodge was not an option...some non-envoys wanted to remove that too, but the consensus seems to have been that the prone restriction makes it fair and reduces the randomisation effect it has on combat to an acceptable level.)

Well, it's not that I'm saying that all dodge skills should stay there and everything is fine as is. From what I understood, this whole nerfing business is due to Bodyguard. That's the sole reason I asked wouldn't it be better to simply change that ability and leave others as they are.
If it's something that has been agreed by all parties even before Bodyguard became an issue, I clearly wasn't aware of that.

It isn't "due to bodyguard" per se. It became more obvious and started being complained about at about the time bodyguard was added, and bodyguard contributes to it by being more accessible to everyone than other dodge skills.

Understood, thanks for the explanation, Shiri.

You can't fix something broken if you don't know it's broken. You don't know it's broken if no one uses it.

This is used as a combat strategy for a lot of people too. For example, Synl will talk about how Tahtetso is overpowered fully aware that Nekotai can do what I do only better (slit lock + tendon, plz). However since people don't routinely cry about it on forums, he tries to make it sound like Tahtetso/Ninjakari are broken while attempting to preserve Nekotai (and for whatever reason, Shofangi).

I've never been a fan of hiding what I can do to preserve it. Likewise, it annoys the out of me when people who read logs of me using my combat skills actually start to believe bs like Nekotai is fair, but Tahtetso isn't.

(I have stated that one of the reasons Shofangi/Nekotai aren't cried about is the lack of really good fighters. Somewhere or other. That said, even with those abilities being used by the greatest fighters imaginable, I do not believe Tahtetso/Ninjakari are worse off than Shofangi/Nekotai. I may well be wrong, but it could go either way until it's proven otherwise.)

I'm tempted to dig up the posts where you continuously will make statements about how Ninjakari/Tahtetso are broken, but for some mysterious reason, you neglect to mention monks as a whole or include Nekotai in your list. You do this specifically because you know quite well that it's difficult to nerf something that isn't well known.

You also have supported various means to "fix" momentum by nerfing modifiers fully aware this will not impact Nekotai to the degree it will Tahtetso. You essentially don't want my guild to be able to do what it does, but you're fine with your own having that as an option.

I'm quite tired of this nonsense. You're an envoy, and I think you should be held accountable for your obvious obfuscation, which is why I'm kindly pointing it out.

He's saying that you use his well-off abilities to justify the your own, both of which are still higher than "balanced" on the scales.

Shrine dodge is a royal pain in the ass for several reasons. Look at psionics or dual wielding knights. The penalty is always eq loss, even if you're using balance, and it isn't reduced like missing or hitting stance/parry. The more attacks you have, the more chance your offense is completely disrupted. A lot of issues in game balance in any game are never discovered until mass usage occurs.

The major "fix", which is changing specs to be more action-based, will not affect Nekotai/Shofangi as much as Tahtetso/Ninjakari because...?

(I'm not trying to -hide- anything. I've always admitted to being a sub-par fighter, and as I admitted in my last post, I may be wrong in my belief that Nekotai, even when used by a top fighter, is not as dangerous as Tahtetso/Ninjakari being used by that same fighter.)

Obviously Narsrim needs to join Nekotai.

I'm amused that neither Chasm nor Barrier have anything to do with Monks, and yet here we are complaining about the Monks and their OPness.

You know what I hate? Sap! Let's complain about that for a while.

Don't make me break out the truechokelich.

Would you kindly?

Well, take a look at the log again. The beast-dodge thing actually didn't do anything here, because it knocked him off-balance (and he got it back before he got EQ). The issue was 100% due to the extension of his off-eq, which came from other powers.

Even without this bug, though, there's been an issue with dodges, especially with them stacking up (shrine + acrobatics, for example, is pretty nasty on its own). Which existed long before beast dodge was added. It just made it even more -worthy.

Oh oh, I have a sap related rant.

I'm pissed that I got OP'd out of the Ascendant Wargames. Blanknote+stun, sap from Lehki, and pierced spine spam from you before I recovered from stun THEN 2, 2700 minorseconds from the Macro Mashing King Xiel (who had previously killed my illusory self with his 1k+ passives that only SS are allowed to have because in the hands of Cacophony or Cantors, it's just OP lolol) and my wargames experience was over.

Nerf everything.

Also: Someone pointed out to me that Narsrim never recovered eq in his little log. As in, Narsrim was straight spamming disruption scroll and not waiting for eq. You can see the "you have not recovered eq" message a few times, and for whatever reason, you can spam attacks off eq and though the attack doesn't actually go through...it can be blocked which, from the looks of it, stacks eq loss. I'm thinking bug.

In essence, Narsrim spammed himself to death.

Not to say that dodge stacking isn't freaking ridiculous, because it is and it needs to die.

Either way, that's a bug, considering it doesn't take equilibrium every read, just that somehow the priority for shrine dodge is set higher than the check for equilibrium.