Well, sure. But it wasn't the only suggestion made.

From what I've read, the suggestion to remove/replace was made, someone came and made a counter suggestion, no one came and supported the first suggestion or made a counter-counter suggestion, despite having a week to do it in. The admin took the two suggestions they had and picked the one they thought was best.

Seems like there was a week to say, "No, Gregori's suggestion is bad, here's why. Suggestion one is better or do this instead." But, no one took that week to state their case, so the Admin didn't have any input other than the two suggestions given. They went with the mana increase one - maybe they agreed with Gregori's counter to the first suggestion or something?

Now though, after the fact, it seems like everyone's saying the suggestion is bad and why and all of the things that should have been done before the report was submitted. Seems kinda like closing a barn door after the horse has already escaped (my mom always used to say that. It doesn't make a lot of sense though, cause the horse should be in a stall, not running loose in the barn! ).

Anyway, I don't care, I'm not an envoy. So, I'll hush now. But it just seems like folks just got lazy about double checking the report before submission time and are now mad because something they didn't notice (cause they didn't look) got through.

Might want to look at the timestamps again, because it was "moved" / flagged as submitted about 2 days after the single comment went up. Without changing of the suggestion. Not 1 week. 2 days.

There were plenty of comments / discussion on the Envoy channel, it looked like the report was done, and suddenly something was ninja-changed. 3 days after the thing was submitted as far as the Wiki was concerned.

I'm really not sure why you're arguing against it, but it really isn't all that unclear why a large number of Envoys were surprised by this. Including the ones reading the report.

Someone in this thread said it was a week so I thought it was a week. Two days before the deadline is a little more short-notice, of course, but eh. I'm not sure why I'm arguing either!

Except that I'm bored at work and it struck me as weird that no one checked or double checked everything just before the deadline cause I know when there's deadlines I obsessively check over things. (I get the same feeling I get sometimes when I'm halfway to work and suddenly just get the need to double check that I actually locked my door, even though I know I did. )

There is no deadline. There never was a deadline. They ask for the reports on envoys channel and then people are reminded to look, then it gets submitted. The last time that happened, I looked, and there was no sign of Gregori's comment (I looked around 1/29). Thus I said "Looks good to me, submit it." Then I stopped checking it because my part was done. They asked for it to be submitted, I reviewed it, looked good to me, I signed off on it, and then I assumed it would be submitted. Gregori certainly didn't post to envoys board saying he made a change for people to look at, nor did I see it mentioned on the channel. It's a fairly large deal to have it up for a month with no changes or objections then suddenly change your mind (Or visit the wiki for the first time in some people's case), then have it submitted two days later.

Not to mention you're just arguing ridiculous semantics in your last post. The point was, an entangle in a world that now has 5s writhe times for people of all sizes if they don't have contort or aren't on bal/eq to use summer is ridiculous since it can be combined with a myriad of other skills (in the case of a certain druid, Sap so you can't cleanse without writhing) was too bloody strong.

I disagree with the conclusion, though. I think an increased mana cost is a fine idea, so long as it is really increased. Beast web is not that different than demon shackle, but beast web needs to be much less spammable. 4k-6k, not 2k.

Demon shackle can also be stacked with beast web, slows down nihilist afflicting by a fractional amount (arguably), and is really freakin' good and does not need duplicating.

Demon shackle is also on a timer and not done on demand combined with a million other skills in game by every single class. Do we now balance assuming every single person in the game has beast web? Since we balance around Omnitrans, I guess so, meaning nihilists will now need two forms of entangle to wrack because they have one guaranteed one on demand.

Not guaranteed if you make it expensive enough, unless you want the Nihilist to nearly trans Beastmastery and have the beast come along to just stand there.

EDIT: Well, I guess the beast wouldn't be standing there. The beast would be trampling every 10-14 seconds, except for when the Nihilist senses the mana kill is near.

It can do plenty of other things that don't involve the mana pool, yes. More often than not my beast just stands there until I need it for something as well. Alphastrike as an axelord with web/knockdown including a 3s stun plus the writhe that doesn't start till after the stun ends is pretty hilarious too. The list is endless.

I don't like the entanglement because of the long writhe time and the combination with a myriad other attacks, but I also don't like the stun idea too much. Stun, even for a short time, blocks absolutely everything you try to do. It's not just 'make the target prone so my next attack is more effective.' It's 'screw with his actions and make him retry all that stuff he just spammed in curing the previous round of afflictions.'

1s stun > entanglement that can be combined with stun. (web/shieldstun, web/blanknote, etc.)

According to the time stamp it was 1 day before the submission was due. Not a week.

Of course, this is very warrior bias.

You only need 1 second of stun to go for a double smite down for an easy behead. In the case of druids or other classes, however, a 1 second stun isn't nearly as useful as a web. Seems to me the core issue is if it shouldn't web, it shouldn't prone period.

No, noob, 1s stun > web because the web prones you for about 3s whereas the stun prones you for 1s.

Edit: I'm not saying the stun isn't still powerful, just saying the web is better and stun is less potent (but still strong).

Thoros is either saying that 1s stun would be better for balance than the web or that he's got his less than sign the wrong way, I think.

But I know that I'd much rather have no-balance web than stun, as a warrior.