For what it's worth, I tested it over periods of time while bashing, by adding a microsecond timestamp to the end of my prompt and averaging the results. Adding ten points gifted me with a reduction of .1 seconds from each swing. Anything less than a ten point difference did not.

This was done while I was attempting to determine what stats make a good weapon.

We're kind of getting off topic though - why haven't we gotten any kind of request to submit information about Forging across all the years the skill has.. well.. basically sucked?

Actually, all you need is a 105 and 109 speed weapon. Since katas take balance at the exact same time, the balances should come up in the same prompt.

It's not entirely forging's fault that you can't play the game.
YOU decided that you absolutely need that .1 speed difference (which is a full second for 10 forms?) and now you're wasting massive amounts of hours trying to get it. It is never going to make the difference between victory and defeat, or save you hours of bashing time. I'm not saying forging doesn't suck and shouldn't be changed but seriously, if the system sucks so much then don't torture yourself for a such a minuscule bonus.
This reminds me of when Tael apparently didn't play for months cause he decided would only play with what he perceived as the perfect weapons that he hadn't forged yet. That's such a bad way to go about this. Make some usable weapons so you can you know, play the game, and while you got some spare time try to forge something better with extra commodities.
I still don't know what your case is, but if say you're planning to switch to monk why not just make 105-109 whatever since you don't think it makes a difference between, and then pay for a 110 later which you've already proven you're willing to do. I'll even forge for you if you pay.
Forging sucks, but the way some people go about it makes it suck more and should not be used as examples to improve it.

It puts the right stat on the thang or else it gets the forge again!

Really though, apart from master plate, which you have to make the base plate for yourself, if you're someone like, say, Gero above, you'd probably be happier paying someone else to do it, and using the time you would have spent forging raising money.

It's not a valid comment to say, "Forging sucks, so don't do it." Forging is something that must be done. Several guilds in the game are based on weapon usage.

It is also not a valid comment to say, "Don't worry about a couple of points, just take what you can get." It's all nice and good to say that it doesn't matter when you play a class that has set damage and lets you summon your weapon for free and in a couple of seconds time. Warriors don't get this advantage. Their skills are -directly- based on the stats of their weapons. Therefore, their entire skillset suffers if they don't have weapons of an excellent caliber. Plus, a full second in battle for a monk can make a lot of difference, especially when you drop the kicks to use just the weapon speed on the kata.

I didn't mean either of those comments you've stated.
And I didn't say you have to settle for less. I was just arguing against the statement that forgers are totally unable to play the game for weeks and months because they're required to have perfect weapons. No, make something that works that only takes a few hours tops, and then afk forge overnights in a manse you think you need to be competitive in fighting so you can still play and have fun when you want to. Does it suck that we have to afk forge to get these weapons? Yes, no arguments here. But you can still play the game if you wanted to.

Also could be wrong but I'm pretty sure kicks actually speed up to whatever the slowest kata weapon speed is in a form if the weapon is faster so dropping kicks for faster speed is just pointless. Ask Casilu I guess. And IMO a full second off after what ~20 seconds is NOT a big difference.

Not quite correct on the kicks. Kick speed is constant and weapons will never be able to noticeably outpace them. Even so, removing kicks for extra speed is the dumbest thing I think you could do, unless you're a non-Shofangi trying to build an insta since most damage and wounds are kick-based.

if you drop a kick you can use a speed modifier on your first form, which is a smart idea when the name of the game is "gain momentum as fast as you possibly can". For nekotai, this is essential, because our combat is basically built around the slit-lock/tendon combo that comes at five momentum.

Also, I've always seen my perfect speed nekai come in much faster than the kick.

Still no answers. Awesome.

I doubt that. I used 115 speed shofa and they came at the exact same time.

Makes you feel good for spending your money on it, doesn't it?

Transed entirely off of charity from a very good man.

But I do regret spending the lessons on it when I could get a better skill like Resilience or another trade skill.

I regret not having transed discipline instead.

Well, instead of lamenting my expenses, I would perhaps like to ask a better question: if Forging isn't going to ever be changed, why not? Would an envoy be able to help? Is making higher statistics weapons too much of a nightmare to balance or recode? Why can nobody devote the time to even talk to the players who invest a little under 300cr in to a tradeskill when that skill has obvious flaws and deficiencies that users complain about constantly? The same could go for producing robes in Tailoring, too - except if I understand, they have it worse on the material usage end. At least we reclaim 100% of all metal used.

I don't think people realize that perhaps we aren't forging for 'perfect' - we use the word 'perfect' to explain a sweetspot where the stats are good enough to be competitive. I suppose it's a wording issue, but the fact that weapon stats play such a huge factor in to weapon class combat shouldn't be such a shock to you people. The issue with the fact that they do play a big role in combat is that these weapons are very, very hard to produce. This attaches an unnecessary requirement to the 'entry level' - a tremendous time sink, the length of which depends entirely upon the mercy of the Random Number Generator. The statistics generated are basically picked at random from three specific ranges, it seems - except for specific weapons (kata weapons, as they work on a 1h: 300, 2h: 600 statistics base that tries its hardest to spread itself evenly across the 3 stats).

The above state means that a player who wants to PK and needs hammers or rapiers, or anything of the sort, must wait a time period ranging from short to eternal to achieve stat ranges that make him competitive. There is a reason all warriors shoot for a certain set up of stats - it is because those stats make him or her effective in combat, and as a class, we cannot settle for less due to changes to the statistics formula in abilities and the way health, deepwounds, etc works. If we settle for less, we unnecessarily lower our possibilities to be competitive.

Here's some interesting math, based off of averages over time that I've seen while forging, and bashing.

When I dig myself in and bash (which I admittedly hate to do, but have been doing regularly lately) I make an average of 15k gold an hour. This is, of course, assuming that areas aren't bashed out and jerks haven't decided to kill the quest mobs. The average is taken from a range of 8k gold to 22k gold, and a few thousand removed for the above listed reasons.

My average time for making a combat quality weapon is 50 hours. I've gone all the way up to 80 hours, but have never forged one in less than 24. Normally, I can not make more than 50k gold per weapon. Any more than that, and people think they're getting screwed and won't buy. There are exceptions, but I've found this to be the norm.

50,000 (gold) / 50 (hours) = 1000 (gold per hour).
1000 (forging gold) / 15,000 (bashing gold) = 0.066667, or about 6.6%

15,000 (gold) * 50 (hours) = 750,000 (gold in total).
750,000 (bashing gold) / 50,000 (forging gold) = 15 (multiplier of bashing vs forging gold)

Result: if I invest the time into bashing, rather than forging, I can make 15 times the gold that i would make forging.

Yeah, I know, it's a bit off topic, but it's yet another argument that forging is imbalanced in time.

I spent a bit of time looking around the forums, curious to see if admin response was a rare thing and thus that I was expecting too much. Doesn't particularly seem too rare. I'd be willing to say it seems fairly common for the admins to take the time to explain why things are the way they are.

So, lets really simplify this:

Can I get a member of the Lusternia Administration to simply tell me what would be required before changes to forging would be considered -and- acted upon? If you tell me what needs to be done, I'm going to make a serious attempt at getting it done. I have already spent hard cash on the skill, I'm willing to go a bit further to see that investment as something other than a complete waste (as I currently do).

Eh, economic arguments are hard for forging. Herbs and alchemy work because they are highly consumable, and everyone needs them to roughly an equal amount.

The same for enchanting, though the need isn't quite as high. Poison has a high rate of consumption for combatants, but a more narrow market.

Forging, however, produces durable goods, that are realtively materials intensive. The market is extremely, extremely narrow as well. Basically, you forge for other knights, and monks sometimes, and then you make shields. The other stuff is either useless (leather and chain), or usually not required (miniature girdles).

This narrow market is compounded by many other knights taking forging, of course. And of those, most at least start off with the intention of making their own equipment (much like a deer thinking staring into headlights is a great idea).

So your market is really monks, shields, and knights who aren't forgers, or are but have realized that making their own weapons isn't worth the effort, especially if they don't have a mallet. (Meaning they are forgers for master armour, more or less).

Monk weapons cost fewer materials to make, but unless you're filling a novice shop order, or someone isn't interested in the really high end stuff, you're looking at extremely long forge times usually. Moreso with tahtos and chains, since your probability of getting a 220 is a number approaching zero, so you have to aim for something difficult but attainable.

Knight weapons are just as bad in some ways, if only because you've got so many types. With the monk stuff, it's simple- your city/commune has one type of weapon, and they all want the same thing from it. But knights, you have four types of weapons, with two sub types (well, four, but only two are really used practically). Of those two sub types, damage stats are pretty consistent, but speed wounders or just plain speed weapons you get different people wanting different things- if they're a demi, for example, they will want to ditch precision and go very heavy on speed, as the extra strength more than compensates for anything they give up. Weapons are also very visible, so people tend to be a little more picky on style.

So, even if forging was easy, the market would still be "wonky". You can sell good stuff eventually, but you need a store room, because decay will be an issue otherwise. But, if forging was easy, then there would be no market at all- knights would make their own stuff, and there would be so many forgers that a monk or anyone else wanting a piece of equipment wouldn't have much trouble finding someone to knock out a high end piece for free.

I think the answers to all your problems is a bit too obvious. Scrap Forging altogether and replace it with an alternate skill like Advanced Basket Weaving. Then everyone is happy.

I am told that a concern of making Forging too 'easy' is that it will deflate the worth of the goods sold. Since the worth of the goods sold is already dismal compared to every trade skill, and the fact that demand is small due to either Forgers doing their own weapons PLUS the fact that armor/weapons/shields last a long time, I don't see why it surprises you that bashing yields more gold. It also yields experience.

Deflation of worth should not be a concern when improving Forging - what with the fact that the skill already yields such a tiny amount of gold anyways.



This reminds me of something hilarious: the Advanced Mastery Basketweaving thread on the DnD 3.5 Optimization Boards - they created a character with Profession (Basketweaving) capable of doing anything on earth with that skill check.