Topics for Envoy Summit

by Charune

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Desitrus2009-03-04 22:42:01
QUOTE (Tael Talnara @ Mar 4 2009, 04:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Huh. If I recall, I merely stated that pre-restore was there because of Lycans in general, not that it was a tactic against them. But it's not first time you've been completely ignorant to any kind of argument in lieu of trying to substitute lulz instead of logic. Proceed.


Pre-restore is for Monks, it's there because it's a "feature" of how Rapture processes code. It even exists in our beloved Lusternia. That's why they got a new skill that covers up what limb they're hitting on a percentage. Any Lycan should shake your hand and thank you for prerestoring after he tears your limbs off. It's not the first time you've been completely wrong, feel free to not dig this hole any deeper in front of the children.
Tael2009-03-04 22:45:42
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Mar 4 2009, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pre-restore is for Monks, it's there because it's a "feature" of how Rapture processes code. It even exists in our beloved Lusternia. That's why they got a new skill that covers up what limb they're hitting on a percentage. Any Lycan should shake your hand and thank you for prerestoring after he tears your limbs off. It's not the first time you've been completely wrong, feel free to not dig this hole any deeper in front of the children.


Funny. If I recall correctly, the reason given by the actual administration of Aetolia was that it was for Lycans, otherwise Pre-Restore wouldn't be around. It doesnt exist in Achaea, Imperian, or any IRE game where there are the original Monks. You're correct in that regard.

But your logic is always right, Desi. How is that Pureblade going for you? I thought it was such a great spec. Oh, wait. You're a Blademaster now. What's that? Didn't kill anyone as a Pureblade? But I thought it was such a great spec.

EDIT: You know, come to think of it. Why are we even discussing Aetolia? Troll some moar.
Unknown2009-03-04 22:49:03
Well here comes another split.
Rodngar2009-03-04 22:57:17
QUOTE (Tael Talnara @ Mar 4 2009, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Funny. If I recall correctly, the reason given by the actual administration of Aetolia was that it was for Lycans, otherwise Pre-Restore wouldn't be around. It doesnt exist in Achaea, Imperian, or any IRE game where there are the original Monks. You're correct in that regard.


Pre-restore exists in Imperian, and it was for Monks. It also happened to seriously harm how a Predator fights his battles, because short of a massive health pool, a timely pre-restore is what kept you from eating the hugest pile of crescentcut damage on Earth. This was really only applicable to the good Predators or the highly artifacted ones - though artifacts and well-spent lessons could get you a few more kill methodst hat didn't depend on damage. You still had to rely on their power to break, and pre-restore sometimes threw that for a loop.

Not that it stopped certain people from simply mashing the ccut macro over and over and over and over until their target died (a cookie to the man who knows who I'm talking about).

Also, pre-restore predates Lycanthropes, if I recall right - even in Aetolia. It was an oft-complained portion of defense against Monks and Zealots or whatever.
Desitrus2009-03-04 22:57:43
QUOTE (Tael Talnara @ Mar 4 2009, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Funny. If I recall correctly, the reason given by the actual administration of Aetolia was that it was for Lycans, otherwise Pre-Restore wouldn't be around. It doesnt exist in Achaea, Imperian, or any IRE game where there are the original Monks. You're correct in that regard.

But your logic is always right, Desi. How is that Pureblade going for you? I thought it was such a great spec. Oh, wait. You're a Blademaster now. What's that? Didn't kill anyone as a Pureblade? But I thought it was such a great spec.

EDIT: You know, come to think of it. Why are we even discussing Aetolia? Troll some moar.


I did kill as a Pureblade. An unruned Pureblade, in fact. This doesn't change that it's the worst spec of the three, now does it? It certainly has the greatest burst potential for group combat and a concise list of suggestions was developed based on using the spec that will trim it up to be on even ground with the other specs. I manhandled the parry and subsequent wound curing on what you're using as a system at the moment, the saving grace in the logs being immunity to senso against a spec with no stun to combo off of. How's bonecrusher treating you, still not able to kill anyone worth a damn?

You're actually wrong, it exists in Achaea and Imperian. It exists in Lusternia, it's just not as applicable. Ask Narsrim or Shuyin why they stand up from Ninjakari tendons instantly without using allheale. You see, restoration and regeneration cures are just timers that pop the cure at the end. On Aetolia they also restore limb health, not quite something to worry about here. But, let's say someone with a delayed action regeneration cure is set up to cause the affliction on you. If you apply regeneration, it will magically cure the affliction instantly on the delayed pulse. It's the same reason most smart people got around double mangles from Idrasi in Imperian. If you know a break is coming, you can apply early and reap the rewards.

Edit: Oh look, someone who knows also rubbed your nose in it, sadface for you.
Tael2009-03-04 23:08:38
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Mar 4 2009, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I did kill as a Pureblade. An unruned Pureblade, in fact. This doesn't change that it's the worst spec of the three, now does it? It certainly has the greatest burst potential for group combat and a concise list of suggestions was developed based on using the spec that will trim it up to be on even ground with the other specs. I manhandled the parry and subsequent wound curing on what you're using as a system at the moment, the saving grace in the logs being immunity to senso against a spec with no stun to combo off of. How's bonecrusher treating you, still not able to kill anyone worth a damn?

You're actually wrong, it exists in Achaea and Imperian. It exists in Lusternia, it's just not as applicable. Ask Narsrim or Shuyin why they stand up from Ninjakari tendons instantly without using allheale. You see, restoration and regeneration cures are just timers that pop the cure at the end. On Aetolia they also restore limb health, not quite something to worry about here. But, let's say someone with a delayed action regeneration cure is set up to cause the affliction on you. If you apply regeneration, it will magically cure the affliction instantly on the delayed pulse. It's the same reason most smart people got around double mangles from Idrasi in Imperian. If you know a break is coming, you can apply early and reap the rewards.


Oh man. Am I hurting your e-peen, Desitrus? Funny how you bring me up in an attempt to insult me, and then start this whole bawwwwfest when I actually retort.

I'd like to see the logs of said 'manhandling' and the excuses you're going to pull on how you failed to kill the person. Last I checked, you actually have to kill the person for it to be counted as being able to kill someone. Anytime you want to spar though, I'm here waiting, sunshine. I look forward to your frequent use of lolpinleg.

Plus, I'm fully aware that Pre-Restore exists in Achaea/Imperian in that regard. That if you apply before the delay, you cure the limb. You know very well that I am referring to the complete limb cure with Regen application in Aeto.



Charune2009-03-04 23:11:51
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Mar 4 2009, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
it's there because it's a "feature" of how Rapture processes code. It even exists in our beloved Lusternia.

It has nothing to do with rapture, it's just not been coded to not continue its 4 second wait if there are no current regeneration afflictions.
Shamarah2009-03-04 23:12:02
QUOTE (Rodngar @ Mar 4 2009, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pre-restore exists in Imperian, and it was for Monks. It also happened to seriously harm how a Predator fights his battles, because short of a massive health pool, a timely pre-restore is what kept you from eating the hugest pile of crescentcut damage on Earth. This was really only applicable to the good Predators or the highly artifacted ones - though artifacts and well-spent lessons could get you a few more kill methodst hat didn't depend on damage. You still had to rely on their power to break, and pre-restore sometimes threw that for a loop.

Not that it stopped certain people from simply mashing the ccut macro over and over and over and over until their target died (a cookie to the man who knows who I'm talking about).

Also, pre-restore predates Lycanthropes, if I recall right - even in Aetolia. It was an oft-complained portion of defense against Monks and Zealots or whatever.


It's different in Aetolia.
Tael2009-03-04 23:17:17
QUOTE (Rodngar @ Mar 4 2009, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pre-restore exists in Imperian, and it was for Monks. It also happened to seriously harm how a Predator fights his battles, because short of a massive health pool, a timely pre-restore is what kept you from eating the hugest pile of crescentcut damage on Earth. This was really only applicable to the good Predators or the highly artifacted ones - though artifacts and well-spent lessons could get you a few more kill methodst hat didn't depend on damage. You still had to rely on their power to break, and pre-restore sometimes threw that for a loop.

Not that it stopped certain people from simply mashing the ccut macro over and over and over and over until their target died (a cookie to the man who knows who I'm talking about).

Also, pre-restore predates Lycanthropes, if I recall right - even in Aetolia. It was an oft-complained portion of defense against Monks and Zealots or whatever.


As Sham said, it's different in Aeto. I don't play Aetolia, but apparently I know more about the game than Desitrus does from what I've gathered from his overall posts so far.

And I want that cookie. 'He whored ccut macro over and over'. 'Who is Zenigra, Alex?' 'Correct.' Last I heard, he's a Noctu now, abusing Truename.
Desitrus2009-03-04 23:23:24
QUOTE (Tael Talnara @ Mar 4 2009, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh man. Am I hurting your e-peen, Desitrus? Funny how you bring me up in an attempt to insult me, and then start this whole bawwwwfest when I actually retort.

I'd like to see the logs of said 'manhandling' and the excuses you're going to pull on how you failed to kill the person. Last I checked, you actually have to kill the person for it to be counted as being able to kill someone. Anytime you want to spar though, I'm here waiting, sunshine. I look forward to your frequent use of lolpinleg.

Plus, I'm fully aware that Pre-Restore exists in Achaea/Imperian in that regard. That if you apply before the delay, you cure the limb. You know very well that I am referring to the complete limb cure with Regen application in Aeto.


Well it was usually ran out of cures or willpower exhausted, neither of us died. Having tendon and a slit-throat, one would think hm, how does one survive this? Oh because one can not be afflicted with slickness. Get it? What excuse do I need? That my inability to push through his coded immunity to the slickness venom prevented me from slitlocking?

There's a bawwwwfest going on? You seem to just be tossing around your normal misinformation, much like the thread where you are teaching the guy who has only ever been an axelord and far more active than you about axe stats and runes. Or maybe the fact that the actual quote from your little bellators verbal vomit was "Pre-restore > lycans" verbatim. How about your amazing maneuvers I hear you teach the young?

Nice cop-out, I specifically mentioned that Aetolian restore adds limb health in my post.

You want a spar, that's fine. You want a spar without pinleg? Make all new jab and crush maneuvers, but none of them can have knockdown. What kind of a retarded statement is that?
Tael2009-03-04 23:25:02
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Mar 4 2009, 06:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well it was usually ran out of cures or willpower exhausted, neither of us died. Having tendon and a slit-throat, one would think hm, how does one survive this? Oh because one can not be afflicted with slickness. Get it? What excuse do I need? That my inability to push through his coded immunity to the slickness venom prevented me from slitlocking?

There's a bawwwwfest going on? You seem to just be tossing around your normal misinformation, much like the thread where you are teaching the guy who has only ever been an axelord and far more active than you about axe stats and runes. Or maybe the fact that the actual quote from your little bellators verbal vomit was "Pre-restore > lycans" verbatim. How about your amazing maneuvers I hear you teach the young?

Nice cop-out, I specifically mentioned that Aetolian restore adds limb health in my post.

You want a spar, that's fine. You want a spar without pinleg? Make all new jab and crush maneuvers, but none of them can have knockdown. What kind of a retarded statement is that?


Took you long enough, but all I heard was 'Baaaaaawwwww'.

Edit: No. I didn't say you couldn't use Pinleg. I'm just expecting that to be the only thing you use. Seeing as how you lack the logs of any credible evidence that you can actually fight someone of worth. Come to think of it, I've never seen or heard of you killing someone notable by yourself. Other than you as Sintor kneecapping people in Pre-Choke.
Desitrus2009-03-04 23:33:25
QUOTE (Tael Talnara @ Mar 4 2009, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Took you long enough, but all I heard was 'Baaaaaawwwww'.

Edit: No. I didn't say you couldn't use Pinleg. I'm just expecting that to be the only thing you use. Seeing as how you lack the logs of any credible evidence that you can actually fight someone of worth. Come to think of it, I've never seen or heard of you killing someone notable by yourself. Other than you as Sintor kneecapping people in Pre-Choke.

The bawww bit is a nice coverup where you claim to know more than me, but in my post you quoted I specifically say aetolian regen is different in that it restores health to the limbs. G to the G.

So you're going to bleed out from rend and morphite? I'd have to hit somewhere else at some point cupcake. Likewise, let me make another blanket statement and say all you'll use is stun.

As to the last part, I've beaten every major combatant in the game 1v1 (except Ceren, whom we never went knight 1v1 after the epic six hour spec plate fight resulting in the nerfing thereof) in recent history, I can't even recall your last kill on someone notable? I have them logged too, but I'm sure you have yours logged, if you even have any?
Tael2009-03-04 23:37:17
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Mar 4 2009, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The bawww bit is a nice coverup where you claim to know more than me, but in my post you quoted I specifically say aetolian regen is different in that it restores health to the limbs. G to the G.

So you're going to bleed out from rend and morphite? I'd have to hit somewhere else at some point cupcake. Likewise, let me make another blanket statement and say all you'll use is stun.

As to the last part, I've beaten every major combatant in the game 1v1 (except Ceren, whom we never went knight 1v1 after the epic six hour spec plate fight resulting in the nerfing thereof) in recent history, I can't even recall your last kill on someone notable? I have them logged too, but I'm sure you have yours logged, if you even have any?


Logs then. I'd like to see them personally, or it didn't happen.

'Beating' someone, eh? I've -never- seen you, in the past year, fight someone by yourself.

EDIT: For reference, you started this. So let's see you end it. Because I'm calling your bluff and your credibility as a combatant at this point.
Isuka2009-03-04 23:46:17
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Mar 2 2009, 09:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...

CODE
Pureblade


Still needs about 3 adjustments to bring itself onto a tier with the other three. Right now, al/bc/bm are actually all very viable; the closest to having all four specs be even in a long time. Axelord for its best-in-show trans instakill with nice stun and Bonecrusher for its synergy with certain other skillsets providing both stuns and uncurable statuses like balance locks both sit slightly above blademaster, which also got a very nice set of buffs recently. Pureblade on the other hand has a couple glaring omissions. Needs a few changes that would take months in normal envoy process. Thoros and I spitballed these back and forth a bit while I was PB recently. Not all are his and not all are mine.

OpenChest for Pureblade needs a 1s stun like crushchest. Some minor cure hindering to actually allow wounding to outpace curing.

SeverPhrenic should delay smoke cures and be a delayed smoke cure itself, rather than random chance to fail smoking. Stacks better with hemiplegy and prevents an avenue of work.

Pureblade LegTendon needs to NOT be cured by allheale. Blademaster and Ninjakari tendons can stay the same, because one gives it without wounds and both give it with two toxins plus combo afflictions. It's a bread and butter affliction for pureblade, but they also can not instantly combo it with anything but one toxin.

Give Pureblade HeftySword like Axelord. Far more useful than the split-second balance loss.

Critical Gut wound impale with extended writhe time (like shackles) on a jab. This means it can't be power attacked (sweep is a swing). Gives double the normal rend bleeding if ripped out. Gives pureblade another non-standard parry punisher. Limited by not being a power attack and requiring critical wounds.

Increase the drain of nutrition on RuptureStomach. Currently I believe it takes around 20-30 attacks to take a person from full to starving. That's 20-30 gut hits at heavy, all scoring the wound. Should be down around 3-5.

...

CODE
Knight Swing Randomness


Morgfyre was working on this a while back, but it got thrown by the wayside? When you look at things like leg swings which have a 60% chance to miss the body part that you want WITHOUT counting stance/parry/rebound/natural miss rate/dodging, it's a bit ridiculous.

CODE
Pulp/Haymaker


Still garbagetown. It would be nice if all warrior trans's were replaced with similar kills to Axelord, but maybe that's just wishful thinking. Both of these use a ridiculous amount of power for a return not even close to what actually managing your power and using crushes/lunges gives.


Great list of topics, first of all.

Having been primarily a Knight in Lusternia (with only small ventures into other things, monk being the only one that's stuck) what I've pulled out of your post above is really all I'm qualified to comment on.

I like the suggestions for Pureblade alterations. I like the RP of playing a Pureblade, and I recognize that if you survive and keep your opponent from running long enough you can do some massive damage to them with a couple of final swings. That said: we don't seem to have much in the way of keeping them from running. Maybe chalk it up to me being nowhere near a great fighter, but I have always had a really hard time trying to figure out how to keep someone still long enough to work up to the amputate afflictions. I know that axelords and (especially) bonecrushers can stun, knockdown and balance lock someone to keep them still, and blademasters have things like pinleg, but I've always been a bit stumped as to how to do that as a pureblade (especially if people parry/stance legs frequently to stop the tendon).

If anyone can offer a suggestion and show me why I've been blind to a solution, please send me a PM.

As far as swinging goes, I don't really understand why it needs to be so random. One would think that a transed knight would be able to hit his target most of the time, putting aside stance and parry. Maybe think about changing the ratios of hit to be a bit more accurate? (as an aside: I train in martial arts, and the sword is my favorite of the weapons we practice with. From a real-life perspective, I can swing my katana down at someone's legs and have a fairly small chance of hitting their gut instead, unless they jump in front of the blade with their stomach. I can only rationalize this with huge weapons like claymores, where accuracy would be a much more difficult thing).

Finally: I don't really see how a pureblade is expected to keep someone still for 12 full seconds for a behead. I have trouble keeping them still for five or six seconds, much less 12. I'd really like to see this changed out for something more along the lines of axelord (affliction requirements, power usage?).
Desitrus2009-03-05 00:09:42
QUOTE (Tael Talnara @ Mar 4 2009, 05:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Logs then. I'd like to see them personally, or it didn't happen.

'Beating' someone, eh? I've -never- seen you, in the past year, fight someone by yourself.

EDIT: For reference, you started this. So let's see you end it. Because I'm calling your bluff and your credibility as a combatant at this point.


Logs and spar provided, cheers.
Vathael2009-03-05 04:15:48
I remember this one time damage killing Tael in a spar fairly easily. I remember this one time getting bashbrained by Desitrus. Hm.
Narsrim2009-03-05 04:46:50
QUOTE (Tael Talnara @ Mar 4 2009, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Logs then. I'd like to see them personally, or it didn't happen.

'Beating' someone, eh? I've -never- seen you, in the past year, fight someone by yourself.

EDIT: For reference, you started this. So let's see you end it. Because I'm calling your bluff and your credibility as a combatant at this point.


While I have yet to fight Desitrus since switching over to Catarin's system, he was able to beat me once as an Axelord in a Celestian FFA. While he's been really crabby lately, I'd say he's got an insight into Lusternian combat that rivals any other combatant. His tone can be off putting, but then again, I'm not really one to comment about that sort of thing!

You, however, are not an elite combatant, Tael. This doesn't necessarily imply your opinion is invalid, but I find it both amusing and disheartening that you seem to think you hold equal footing with those of us who'd crush you in an instant. I recall fighting you as Ariatas (Shadowdancer) with transcendent Wicca/Night/Healing (and no other skills) and -destroying- you as a Moondancer with Hexes. I don't think you hit me. I likewise have fought you as an Aquamancer/Celestine/Blacktalon/Tahtetso, and you don't even remotely dent me. This was mostly with a mostly manual curing system.

Your words and "suggestions" will carry more weight when you can back them up.
Karnagan2009-03-05 14:41:32
Desitrus:

Pureblade uses assault, not sweep. Now, the AB says that assaults count as swings- but I can guarantee you from my time as a Pureblade, Assaults can DEFINITELY be used as jabs, or I would never have been able to pull off one-hit legtendons, ever.

QUOTE
PUREBLADE - LEGTENDON

Bodypart: Leg
Minimum Wound State: Heavy
Maneuver: Jab, two-handed sword
Severing the tendon of the leg just above the ankle is a vicious maneuver that
will knock your foe down and prevent him from standing up.


PUREBLADE - ASSAULT

Syntax: ASSAULT
Power: 4 (Any)
This precision swing will avoid most of your opponent's combat defences,
for example rebounding and stances, and it will do more wounding than
normal. This counts as a swing.


So any revamp of the PB skillset is going to have to take that into account. Not to mention that PB Hemiplegy simply sucks- Blademasters can throw out 2 of them, and I'm nearly 100% positive that Tahtetso and Ninjakari can put the afflictions on. That's before even talking about venom stacking. But PB? Ridiculous- hemiplegy simply doesn't work, and it basically makes developing arms at all a silly concept.
Ronny2009-03-05 14:57:22
QUOTE (Karnagan @ Mar 5 2009, 10:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Desitrus:

Pureblade uses assault, not sweep. Now, the AB says that assaults count as swings- but I can guarantee you from my time as a Pureblade, Assaults can DEFINITELY be used as jabs, or I would never have been able to pull off one-hit legtendons, ever.



So any revamp of the PB skillset is going to have to take that into account. Not to mention that PB Hemiplegy simply sucks- Blademasters can throw out 2 of them, and I'm nearly 100% positive that Tahtetso and Ninjakari can put the afflictions on. That's before even talking about venom stacking. But PB? Ridiculous- hemiplegy simply doesn't work, and it basically makes developing arms at all a silly concept.


REPORT 139. Read and rejoice.
Desitrus2009-03-05 15:07:39
QUOTE (Karnagan @ Mar 5 2009, 08:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Desitrus:

Pureblade uses assault, not sweep. Now, the AB says that assaults count as swings- but I can guarantee you from my time as a Pureblade, Assaults can DEFINITELY be used as jabs, or I would never have been able to pull off one-hit legtendons, ever.



So any revamp of the PB skillset is going to have to take that into account. Not to mention that PB Hemiplegy simply sucks- Blademasters can throw out 2 of them, and I'm nearly 100% positive that Tahtetso and Ninjakari can put the afflictions on. That's before even talking about venom stacking. But PB? Ridiculous- hemiplegy simply doesn't work, and it basically makes developing arms at all a silly concept.


Karnagan, I don't even know where to begin buddy. First of all, you were just given a heavy wound that blocks curing hemiplegy and is a regen cure. Second, I can call it assault or sweep, it honest to God doesn't matter because they are both power SWINGS. What you missed was that way back when, they added leg tendon TO swing and the AB file has been wrong forever and ever. Sweep is exactly the same thing but for Axelords. Trying to pin me on a term is just plain ridiculous considering they do exactly the same thing. Do a little research before you post, that swing tendon bit has been known since I started the game.