City/Commune Conflicts

by Estarra

Back to Common Grounds.

Shamarah2009-03-05 22:01:07
Honestly, I think making alchemy/enchantment not commune/city exclusive will go a long way towards breaking the Celenwilde and Magnadoring blocs. Cities and communes can't be at each others' throats because they are too dependent on those trades.
Everiine2009-03-05 22:02:22
QUOTE (Estarra @ Mar 5 2009, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We've tried this before and were accused of 'forcing' RP that players didn't want.... freaked.gif


There's a delicate balance between forced RP interaction and optional RP interaction. I don't know where that line is or how to find it. But it's a line we may benefit from finding.
kiriwe2009-03-05 22:03:09
QUOTE (Shamarah @ Mar 5 2009, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Honestly, I think making alchemy/enchantment not commune/city exclusive will go a long way towards breaking the Celenwilde and Magnadoring blocs. Cities and communes can't be at each others' throats because they are too dependent on those trades.


This.
Noola2009-03-05 22:07:11
What is the purpose of not having alchemy and enchantments available to all? Is it to keep it difficult for rogues?

Why not have an alembic (however the crap you spell that! laugh.gif The potion making thing) in an old run-down lab somewhere... it works, but the quality of potions you get from it is crappy so you can only get half a vial or half a keg for the same amount of herbs. Same with a pentagram. Have some old ritual site where there's a busted up pentagram that can be used, but it takes twice the power or something.

That way, folks have other options to get the potions/enchantments they need, but they're not as good of an option. Communes can team up against cities cause they can still get ahold of enchantments, same with cities and potions. But it won't just be a free-for-all.
Unknown2009-03-05 22:10:29
QUOTE (Estarra @ Mar 5 2009, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We've tried this before and were accused of 'forcing' RP that players didn't want.... freaked.gif

You also forced Celest and Glom to break up when they were getting close, and have continued to force the Seren-Celest Glom-Mag group via a number of events. This isn't going to change in the near future, because lets face it, the orgs aren't going to change in the near future. Although I did hear the leaders of Celest and Desi have some fun planned in the future.
Llandros2009-03-05 22:12:20
Having the bard archtype trade skill come about would make it more reasonable for city - commune conflict. I like the firm distinctions between cities and communes so i'm not sure i'd be real excited about making enchanting and alchemy available to all orgs.

I also think that giving orgs that have their shields fall some sort of break to re-group is a good idea. I'm not usually for those kinds of things but raising the shield is such a pain that i think it would be appropriate.
Fyler2009-03-05 22:14:49
QUOTE (Gregori @ Mar 5 2009, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In all honesty, the issue is a much bigger thing than one org stomping another org. It is the dichotomy of Lusternia. On one side you have "good" on the other side you have "bad". Further punctuated by the fact that viewing it from another perspective you have on one side alchemy and the other side enchantments.

The good side will gravitate towards each other while the bad side will also gravitate towards each other. Alchemy and enchantments push this necessity even further. Now, we have cases where, for brief periods, the waters were clouded on the alchemy side flowing back and forth between good and bad, but when you cut it into city and commune the basic structure is the same, there is 1 good city and 1 good commune and 1 bad city and 1 bad commune.

So you end up with 1 city + 1 commune against 1 city + 1 commune and the tendency again reverts to the classic "good" vs "bad" and the roles almost never change. This can be proved by looking at the four years of Lusternia history and seeing that with the exception of very short periods of time, the "alliances' have never shifted. They can't shift for very long due to the colourful and wonderful history provided to us. They also cannot break for very long due to the reliances on certain needed items.

This means when one Org gets stronger, it is actually both the Orgs in the pairing getting stronger. When one org gets weaker, both Orgs in the pairing get weaker. So you end up with 2 groups of people who are feeling downtrodden and leaving the game.

What needs to happen is a reason, and this will probably mean a complete ideological change in some ways, for those hard set alliances to not be needed. There needs to be a reason that Serenwilde and Glomdoring would help each other against Celest and/or Magnagora. Or even a reason that Celest and Magnagora would help each other against Serenwilde and/or Glomodring. There needs to not be a forced reliance on goods that create this same recurring problem we have seen for four years.

Hard coding anti-grief mechanics (and this is the second time now) every time Orgs are being abused is a bandaid to a much larger problem. Taking the current setup as an example, assuming that Serenwilde and Celest go to war, Celest will end up in need of alchemy, Serenwilde in need of enchantments. They will gravitate towards the places they can get them, short term alliances will form and the dog pile cycle will begin anew. The war will end, the alliances will slowly filter back to their "proper" alignment and we will be back to this place once more.

The bandaid may stop one symptom of the problem, but it doesn't deal with the problem in and of itself.


Organizations don't necessarily have to have allies. As long as they aren't at war with everyone, thus cutting off supply lines, there is plenty of room for flexible conflict. From my experience, when player organizations stick together for extended periods of time, it is because they are winning and it's easy, and everything will take a back seat to that fact. From what I've seen and read, both in scrolls and in the history, it doesn't make a lot of sense for Serenwilde to be allied with Celest in the first place.

I also think the forests don't exist as "good" or "bad." It seems they were designed to be gray areas.

Administration can, and sometimes must, take steps to ensure the stability of their playerbase, but the movers and the shakers of the playerbase make the day to day decisions. RP is fluid and flexible, it can change, within reason, to fit with what is needed.
Iola2009-03-05 22:15:59
QUOTE (Fyler @ Mar 5 2009, 10:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I also think the forests don't exist as "good" or "bad." It seems they were designed to be gray areas.


Unfortunately this is far, far from how they are played - partially out of necessity due to the city+commune ally spiral mentioned far more eloquently by many others.

Both communes have issues with being divided between Celenwilder/Magnadoring supporter and city hater. It would be nice if the communes were more independant in many ways but it's unlikely in others as outlined above.
Shaddus2009-03-05 22:17:29
Also, it would help if Mag had more than one active divine. suspicious.gif
kiriwe2009-03-05 22:18:34
QUOTE (Shaddus Mes'ard @ Mar 5 2009, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, it would help if Mag had more than one active divine. suspicious.gif

Same goes for Glomdoring
Furien2009-03-05 22:19:05
Estarra2009-03-05 22:22:28
Regarding divine, feel free to apply to be an ephemeral, work long hours on projects, learning to build and admin, and then apply to become a god in Magnagora!
Kiradawea2009-03-05 22:22:50
I think that a better thing to do would be to create new avenues of aiding your organization in a positive manner. Hurting the opposition is interesting because it involves combat, interesting quests *not anymore as far as I know* and lots of challenges. Helping your own org is usually just "punch essencecreature" or "compliment planarmob" repeated into infinity. I think the first step in right direction would be making it "not so bad" to be the underdog, because there are multiple ways to help your organization. For example if a Demon Lord falls, instead of hunting essence you could greet a mob and be given a necklace to wear while empowering demons, and instead of adding power to your org, you would add "essence" to raising the Lord.

The hand quest, if you ignore the fact that they are WAY too tedious, and the Asylum quest where you release a powerjewel, are wonderful ideas because they give you means to help your org that does not involve hunting essence.

Now, I realize that this won't make the trashing recede, but it will be more bearable, and in my opinion it will be a much better solution to make building more fun than making tearing down less fun.

In addition, I want to ditto what the others have said. If you want to prevent *org* from trouncing *org* then you have to remove the NW|SE distinction. It needs to be easier for Celest and Magnagora to team up against the forests and their plan to remove all traces of civilization, and Glomdoring needs to have the option to ask Celest for help against the diabolical schemes of SereGora.
Shaddus2009-03-05 22:23:58
QUOTE (Kiriwe y'Kaliath @ Mar 5 2009, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Same goes for Glomdoring

Glom has Viravain and Nocht. Mag has Fain, and he's always busy coding or griefing Soulless out in the void.
Shaddus2009-03-05 22:26:36
QUOTE (Estarra @ Mar 5 2009, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Regarding divine, feel free to apply to be an ephemeral, work long hours on projects, learning to build and admin, and then apply to become a god in Magnagora!


/derail

I tried.

They told me LOLno. Well, not really. But I seriously don't think I would ever be accepted.

I even applied a few times to guide, because I love novices. Nope.

I'm guessing my utter rage and screaming at Eventru gives me some sort of black mark. sad.gif

kiriwe2009-03-05 22:28:43
QUOTE (Shaddus Mes'ard @ Mar 5 2009, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Glom has Viravain and Nocht. Mag has Fain, and he's always busy coding or griefing Soulless out in the void.

When was the last time you saw Viravain take an active interest in her org?
Romero2009-03-05 22:28:59
QUOTE (Estarra @ Mar 5 2009, 04:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We've tried this before and were accused of 'forcing' RP that players didn't want.... freaked.gif


There is no such thing as forced RP, Estarra. As admins and storytellers, its your world to shape as you want and we have to interact given our situations. Who cares if players freak about this sort of thing, now the mechanics involved of the conflict are another thing. But the part of RP is that stuff happens and you deal with it, good or bad.
Casilu2009-03-05 22:29:19
QUOTE (Estarra @ Mar 5 2009, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Regarding divine, feel free to apply to be an ephemeral, work long hours on projects, learning to build and admin, and then apply to become a god in Magnagora!


I would, I think that would be awesome. I just don't think I'd be good at the being an admin part either with building or coding.
Unknown2009-03-05 22:30:13
QUOTE (Estarra @ Mar 5 2009, 05:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Regarding divine, feel free to apply to be an ephemeral, work long hours on projects, learning to build and admin, and then apply to become a god in Magnagora!


That sounds like an excellent idea! So re-open applications please? pray.gif
Urazial2009-03-05 22:33:23
QUOTE (Kiriwe y'Kaliath @ Mar 5 2009, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Same goes for Glomdoring

Glomdoring has Viravain and Nocht.

... and since I was ninja'd, I'll also say that Viravain is around more often than you'd think, but a bit more quiet all in all. Of course, she does have her moments!