Then why is this discussion taking place? If all that matters is if A-C shell out the money to become griefers, why bother trying to keep D-Z at all? Why encourage RP, why have stories, why have events? Let Lusternia become just another MUD where people come to bash things, get their lulz and go home.

To the griefers who would respond "But the story is why I come to Lusternia, don't change it!", that's a handy excuse to support your side, but when you threaten to leave if you don't get your way, you prove that RP and story have nothing at all to do with your actions.

My point is there are more than players in this equation. You have Gods encouraging and threatening players if they don't raid. You have Gods that use the excuse "I am sticking by my RP of whatever they want to do they can do" to let players run roughshod over others.

Then you have both sets coming to the forums when it is brought up and saying "This has no impact on player enjoyment/retention"

Followed by Estarra herself coming in and saying "the actions of players are having a negative impact on player enjoyment/retention"

If the people in charge of Lusternia are not doing something within their more than capable scope to deal with situations, especially when situations are called to attention , and even more so when the players running rough shod are under the direct control RPwise (assuming your theory of an enforced RP mud) of those people in charge then this is a problem that does not rest soley on the player's shoulders.

So in the end player's get accused of a lack of restraint (rightfully so, I am not disagreeing with this), hard coded changes get put in to restrain them, when all it would have taken was 1 or 2 admins saying to their Order "settle down".

Funny that the players that are forcing Estarra to step in and do something are not preciselly the ones being encouraged by that(those) misterious admin(s) to do whatever they wanted.

No it's more like players A, B, and C are going to do whatever they like regardless of whether it's fun for other people. Players D-M are NOT griefers. They are just playing the game. Raiding is fun. They want to raid. But they realize that there is a lot of raiding going on, so they participate less and less. Eventually they don't really have much reason to log on. Meanwhile, A, B, and C are still doing whatever it is they want so N-Z are still just as miserable.

You can stand on your soapbox all you like acting like the people who raid are all horrible people or something but they are not. They are just people trying to play the game in a way that's enjoyable to them. Someone does not have to raid everything single day all day long to be put on a guilt trip for it. I barely ever raid (or even play) now but I still get complaints when I do. There is one extreme of people killing everything and everyone constantly and there is the other extreme of people complaining about EVERY single attack.

When someone enjoys raiding, it means that is primarily what they like to do. When they "restrain" themselves, it means that when they log onto the game, they can't do what they want to do. Now it might be the "right" thing to do but it sure as heck isn't that much fun. So instead of acting like raiders are these evil people bent on making everyone else miserable, perhaps recognize that they have as much right to play and enjoy the game as anyone else and think of better solutions than "If they would just restrain themselves" i.e. "If they would just put other people's enjoyment of the game over their own."

You're missing it. What would Magnagora have been without Murphy and Daevos way back when, and without Thoros and Romero now? A city of bashers with a side of Sthai. You can do that for every org. Your org without its active leaders, who are active because they like the game as it is, would suck. Believe me, it would. I'm looking at Glom post-intelligent-leaders, and every time a Glom posts on these forums or shouts or sends me a tell, I become less likely to ever go back. When you lose the top tier, when you discourage achievement, or even when you turn achievement towards the strictly PvE mechanical, the entire game suffers.

Raiders are not horrible people. Raiding is part of what makes this game fun. People though that have no concern for others and then threaten to leave when they don't get their way are who I am talking about.

If I like killing newbies, because it's easy and I enjoy it, would someone be within their right to tell me to lighten up? Would I have a right to tell them off because killing newbies is what I like to do? I am not against raiding or conflict-- I am against the "let me do whatever I want or I'll leave" attitude.

Since you have no idea what players are forcing what, this is a pointless attempt to try and blame a select region of players.

Let's fix your statement then refute it.

"Funny that Celest and Serenwilde players are the ones forcing Estarra to step in....."

Estarra did not at any time say what section of the game's players were causing this or which were more innocent than others. The fact is no side is innocent, but all sides have Admins that can say "settle down and let them be" in whatever IC way best suits them. Instead though, some of them encourage it, or ignore it, or they condone it, not only IC, but on the forums.

So, if you are seeking to point fingers and lay blame at certain player's feet, then it would be best to quit while you are ahead.

It seems more to me that the ones who threaten to leave are the non-raiders. Bored raiders don't threaten to leave. They just leave.

I have yet to see anyone threatening to leave. It is a simple statement of fact that raiders who become bored (and not participating in raiding due to trying to keep things enjoyable for the other side is a fast way for them to get bored) will stop playing. No threats necessary.

No one is saying they are evil people, it is merely being said they lack restraint, which you cannot really deny with people like Narsrim. I think Everiine is right and even if you have bought 3000+ credits and you are a leader of an org, it doesn't mean you have a right for your fun to come at the expense of another org on a prolonged basis. If Celest finds it fun killing Magnagora loyal denizens then you have effectively subverted the way game was intended to be played, there are fun things to do besides ensuring an orgnisation cannot function in low level essential quests. I also note it's been a long time since Celest actively challenged Serenwilde, that would be plenty challenging and would have pk, but you don't go for that you are going for the soft target.

On way earlier topic I think essential quest denizens should be made invincible such as Seritul etc (and Ardak too as wth should anyone be able to kill the person who inducts into the city?) to prevent people abusing it to stop quests. It would be extreme but then the org wouldn't be held hostage with nothing they could do but wait for repop and them to be killed again. I agree with longer immunity times as well, even if it only delays the time the necromentate falls by a few more days.

Without quoting them directly, I can recount at least two posts saying "If we try this they will leave".

That's not a threat. It's fact. It happens every day. It's happening right now!

There's a difference between they and me. Just saying.

You're not being objective in the least, Ishant. No one's picking a soft target. Ever consider that Celest has more of a reason to fight Magnagora than any other org ? Glomdoring would be a soft target, not Mag. You are acting as if Mag has been pounded into the ground for months. They are not the dead horse you make them out to be. And Celest and SW went to war once and it lasted a good long while. Don't try and dictate what Celest should do as if it's just about picking fights for jolts and jollies.

This thread is depressing.

Keep in mind that the DL group went for Glom after they finished with Mag.

And lost.

Tell me when was the last time Serenwilde and Celest fought? It hasn't been for a long time and you know it.

I was merely pointing that your raiders could go for other targets if they decided to make the rp for it, there are other places to raid besides kicking Magnagora when it is down. You do go for Glomdoring at times too, so I'm not saying that doesn't happen.

Magnagora hasn't been healthy for a long time, Thoros raided for sure but the org barely grew and even under him the Necromentate fell, it hasn't been overly healthy since Daevos resigned. It only got bad recently because serenwilde weighed in, which was just too much.

To the Avatars and a meld, I think.

But still, that was just a counterpoint to the "We aren't hitting soft targets, and this is my definition of a soft target".

But you have to see that it's not really just Celest's players responsibility to ensure Magnagora is doing well? Magnagora was fine with the things Thoros was doing. They were fine with him picking fights with both Celest and the Serenwilde. They were fine with him ascending. Celest and Serenwilde duking it out isn't going to all of a sudden make Magnagora healthy. It just makes it so the problems are not so readily visible. Which makes it less likely that any players will get sick of it and try to do something.