I started reading this thread, then stopped, started typing a reply, but decided to finish reading and then realized Elostian said everything I was going to say already. I see that he has been touched by His noodly appendage.

This thread alone contains more quasi-religious pseudo-scientific than the rest of Lusternian forums have ever seen.

Tut.

Everyone start posting here again.

I know, I'm so proud

So, has anyone ever heard of Le Dragon Rouge? They're a strange so-called 'Left-Handed Path' with roots in the depth of Europe. I have just recently learned of them. It seems like an interesting esoteric order, but they charge money for membership which is a red flag in my book. However, apparently they send a magazine and various ritual workbooks to those who would join.

What strikes me as interesting is their focus on Yoga more so than most left-handed paths. They focus of the rising of the Kundalini (the serpent which coils from the root chakra and upwards) PAST enlightenment of the thousand petaled Lotus and to another spiritual state, one akin to a God. They use the Qabalah, as well as it's demonic antithesis, the Qliphoth, in their teachings. (The Qliphoth just so happens to contain Demon Lords like Lucifuge, Astaroth, and Belphegor. I <3 Estarra) I believe there's also a bit of Asatru mysticism worked in there as well. Has anyone else ever heard of it?

EDIT: This post enticed me into learning a bit more about the Qliphoth, AKA the Tree of Knowledge. I never even knew there was a shadow-side to the Qabalah, and now that I do I'm utterly astonished at how interesting it is. Apparently, use of the Qliphoth predates the Qabalah and early practitioners can be traced back as far as Ancient Sumerian Babylon. Of course, these sources aren't verified... but the fact that they are as ancient as the Qabalah is clear. In fact, they're viewed as pre-dating the Sephirah altogether, like the eggshells left over from a born eagle. This does not mean they don't have their uses of course. For the visual people, here's an picture of the duality between Baal Pehor and Gedulah between the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge.

Since this thread was necroed, I just want to point out how hilarious it is that Alianna's timecube troll was taken seriously. Really speaks for the rest of the thread.

That's because you're EDUCATED STUPID!

Timecube troll? I do not follow. Nor do I see the utter ridiculousness in this thread- it mostly consists of Dakkhan explaining his interests and beliefs, criticism thereof, and an effort to understand what he meant, followed by a brief secondary derailing of religion in general, defense thereof, rinse and repeat.

Now I inquire out of interest again. What do you mean, Shiri?

Follow the link Alianna posted.

Oh. I forgot all about it.

I did check the bathwater, though.

sometimes, a troll is disguised as a serious topic. other times, a serious topic is disguised as a troll.

I thought it was hilarious that timecube was mentioned, as that is one of the oldest jokes on the interwebs.

Man, I forgot how much I love Timecube.

Citations, plz.

I can't remember if Klipot are first discussed in the Sefer Yetzirah, Bahir, or the Zohar, but the meaning of klipoth in traditional kabalah is very different than that which was described above.

The Klipot (Shells/husks depending on the metaphor you are using) are the wrappings around each sephirah which blocks and disguises what the sephirah really is.

The common metaphor is that a person wears clothing which tells you a lot about that person (fireman,police, teacher, doctor, goth, emo-kid etc.) However, only a fool would think that the clothing defines the person, or that the clothing is the person. (rather its the person who defines which clothing to put on)

It is that confusion of what is the "clothing" and what is the "essence" which defines/creates evil. For example, confusing the judgment of the court with actual justice. The Zohar personified these husks/shells as having an active drive or purpose for the benefit of easy conversation.

The idea that the Klipoth are demons is something new. However, before Judaism, people did believe that evil came from demons and were fighting against good (aka Zoroastrianism) So I imagine, that those people who want to say that the Klipoth in Kabalah are the continuation of the demons from Zoroastrianism, could argue that "use of the Qliphoth predates the Qabalah and early practitioners can be traced back as far as Ancient Sumerian Babylon." Because in the language of the new age folk, the demons of Zoroastrianism are the same as the "qliphoth" of the Kabalah. Even though in reality they are very different ideas. (I imagine that is why they spell it "qliphoth" instead of "klipot" (pronounced Klee-Pote)

Zoroastrianism was not practiced in Sumeria. Worship of the Sumerian gods was. Zoroastrianism was much later than Sumer.

@Sthai- The truth of the matter is that most records from that time are lost. It's an opinion that I read on some forums that the spheres of the Qliphoth are representations of the Ancient Gods. Here's a piece from The Tree of Death and the Qliphoth by John Gee that clearly shows the connection Between Lilith and Sumeria.



Clearly Lilith had a part in Sumerian culture, but at the time there was a religious cataclysm - the birth of the Hebrew religion. This cataclysm could have destroyed much of the information of the Ancient Gods. Some have speculated that the Qliphoth were representations of the old pagan gods, now called demons, that spanned from Lilith in Sumeria up to the northern lands. It could've even been a way to undermine those old gods through plagiarism and literal demonization. You can see this kind of plagiarism all throughout religious history. From the adaptation of Jesus as a Sun God ala Horus, to the use of Catholic saints in Voodoo.

Anyways, the general consensus of the Sumerian tablets is that there was a War in the Heavens, seen in local silt samples as a giant flood, that wipes much of these local civilizations clean. Whatever really happened is lost in time, and I'm no scholar so please don't quote me. But it's something to think about.

Actually, what happened is that Cyprus the Great invaded Babylon. A few centuries later, we have the destruction of the city. That was a pagan-driven thing.

It's pretty true that a lot of names got coopted, myths got smushed together, etc. This is pretty visible with the Inanna/Ishtar/Ashterah/Astarte nonsense; most of the cultural groups were highly syncretic.

Oh, good, there's a citation for Lilith being Inanna's handmaiden. The closest thing I had to that was a mention of Lilith in the huluppu story, which places her a bit at odds with Inanna. On the other hand, that still doesn't give us the structure of the Tree of Life or the Qlipoth (that being the shadow of the Tree) in Sumerian times, just a fair number of demons that tend to have the same names. While I'll fully admit the names and some of the myths of the demons probably ended up coopted into things like the Key of Solomon and various Jewish texts, I'd love to see something that traces the actual structure of the Tree back that far.

Odd, why did I think zoroastrianism was a subset of sumerian culture? Aha.. I see now. Wierd. Ok, In my earlier paragraph I was using zoroastrianism as the name of the religion that had links to Jewish texts. Zoroastrianism has none of those links, so replace zoro with sumerian in my earlier post and you will get the same info.

The story of abarahm is the story of the rejection of the Sumerian gods, not the zoro ones.

The idea of seeing the pagan gods as demons, must be a much later thing. In strict Jewish tradition, the pagan gods are seen as angels that were mistaken for gods.

You actually aren't as confused as you think. Both Zoroastrianism and the Sumerian mythology make cameo appearances in early Judaic texts. Zoroastrianism was/is a wildly popular idea, so it's possible that Judaism received Zoroastrian influences via Sumer, rather than pure Zoroastrianism. That's a bit out of my scope to determine.

The interpretation of pagan gods as demons does have a brief showing in late Judaic texts, but Christians really take the cake on this one. The Western conception of the devil has horns, hooves, and a tail because it made for a convenient propaganda tool, not because you'd find that in writing anywhere.

Well, the first Jewish temple was destroyed in 586 BCE (built in 10th century BCE) and Zoroastrianism was started in c. 440 BCE, so I'm pretty sure we are just talking about Sumer influence.