Look a civil conversation without being a Jerk.

Like I said before, I'm just trying to give a recap of what the arguments against archways was back then. If things have changed (like I wrote "unless things have greatly changed") then they have changed. (I think aetherdocs making the melds breakable would count as a "great change" )

I still havn't seen you explain why you think archways should go away.

It seems a bit naive to me to just ignore all the rants back in 2006 because they were "three years ago."

I did.

Edited: My amount of ':/' smileys sickens me o_o

Ok sir, whatever you want to believe. You go ahead and believe.

So you were saying before that people can just walk into nil/celestia? How do they do that?

cubix

cubix isn't walking... which was the argument in the past. Any person could just "walk in"

Right... and if Celstian/Nil didn't have a cubix exit?

Estarra seems to be under the impression that Artifacts should not be a necessary component for planar raids.

Do we even need the rifts for etherglom/seren if we had the cubix exits?

If cubix exits aren't going to be added to Etherwilde and Etherglom, they should be removed from Celestia and Nil to make things even.

I'm not in favor of adding or removing cubix exits.

There's an exit to Faethorn which should make it easy to enter either ethereal realm. What's on the table is should this way to enter the ethereal realms be archways or normal exits.

Yeah, I guess it isn't actually that big of a deal.

Are you guys going to make mages be able to meld Ethereal, though? The planes will never be even until you do.

That is not what this thread is about! It's about whether we should have archways or normal exits.
I'm in favor of normal exits

Ethereal combines qualities of both cosmic and elemental planes. Thus, like elemental planes, they cannot be melded except through druid-type melds.

Look, we aren't trying to make the planes "even". Not everything is even. Some advantages and disadvantages may exist on one side that doesn't on another.

Removing the archways completely is the best way to go. If you just move them then people still suffer the balance loss issue.

Using Shamarah and I as an example. I see him on ethereal, I go meld the archway room in EthSeren 'just to be safe'. He comes through is off balance, I saplock and demesne hits him and what not before he can even react.

With the archways gone, he has a chance to get in and out without such issues.

Will it mean it is harder to defend ethereal than it is currently? Yes, but that is the point.

Will it be the end of the world? No. It just means the communes will have to actually get off their ass and defend. They still hold demesne advantage, raiders just have an easier time getting in.

Will there be lame 3am ladies/daughters raids? Of course there will be. This is Lusternia.

Here's the thing, though. All elemental planes have on them is the Tide/Earth Lords; and, apart from roleplay, it does not matter at all if they die. The Ethereal planes, on the other hand, have the Avatars. It's a huge advantage for the communes to be able to set up a demesne when they go for a DL/Sup, whereas the cities can't do any such thing when they go for an Avatar. Sure, the communes can't demesne if they want to kill a Tide/Earth Lord, but those go down so quickly that you can be in and out before anyone even has a chance to react in any case. And even if they do die, they respawn on their own and they don't affect any skills or cost any power.

You say that the planes are supposed to have their advantages and disadvantages, but what advantages are the Cosmic planes meant to have to balance out Ethereal? Even with the changing of the archways, the balance is still severely in favor of Ethereal:

1. Mages cannot meld Ethereal, but Druids can meld Cosmic.
2. The Demon Lords and Supernals are located behind their own pillars/pits, meaning that you can't meld all of the DL/Sups in one demesne. The Avatars, on the other hand, aren't behind anything like that, so you can get all three avatars and the nexus in a single meld.
3. Liveforest is just plain better than ripple; the long entangle is much more useful than the short stun.

I don't see any advantages on Cosmic that balance out any of this. (Advantages on the Elemental planes don't count, because the Elemental planes aren't important.)

Unless you make the planes a bit more "even", I don't see how you are going to be able to balance having the etherglom/seren raidable by the cities, yet have sane and reasonable combat when the communes are fighting with eachother.

I don't think it's an advantage/disadvantage when you say, If Team A attacks us, we are fine, but if Team B attacks us, we have to put in extra effort. Because then, Team A just won't have a desire to attack.

I think to compare a person with a cubix "walking in" and to compare any member of the enemy org "walking in" is unbalanced, and not just an advantage/disadvantage situation.

If cubixes are not an option, then rifts would be the next best option. However, rifts can be blocked, while cubix exits can't.

Originally, archways had no balance loss. I can't remember why balance loss was added, but I believe it had something to do with "enter archway/fly" or dreamweavers.

The big difference, as far as I can see, is the ability to meld from Faethorn to the ethereal realms. How big of a deal is the balance loss? Another small difference (or not so small?) is that open borders allow entry through different elevations. At this point, I'm not sure whether removing the archways is the best way to go or not.

The archway serves the same function as a nexus on Cosmic, except there's only guards on one side. Getting in through the "regular" door for either cities or communes requires some ridiculous amounts of tanking. There are aethership ports for each, but those aren't exactly convenient entrances.

The imbalance really has nothing at all to do with the archways. It's 1) no cubix entrance, 2) unmeldable, and 3) better discretionary power. If you're looking to fix the imbalance, that's where you start.

Sand power.

Okay, but they come back within a couple hours and most people don't bother harvesting essence anyway. There's really no comparison.

Sure, sure. I don't mean to detract from your argument with pettifoggery. But Esano's power tables show that essence plays an important if minor role and consistent hammering of the Elemental lords will have a material effect.

I believe she said twice that she wasn't looking to sweep away any and all imbalances. Or rather that even if she was, that's not the purpose of this thread.

I wasn't around when there were no archways, and I wasn't around when they were moved, so I can't offer more than theoretical opinions.

Simply moving the archways does seem like it'll clear up some of the issues with raiding Ethereal, since raiders wouldn't be walking into a gaggle of guards. (Another idea would be to make org guards similar to smobs in that the more present the less dangerous, or something but again, this isn't the thread for that) And while I'm thinking about this: If your raiders are paying attention, is it possible for one person to walk the group through the archway and take the hit or die while everyone else scatters to raid as normal?

If the archways are removed entirely, would the exits have a continuous path before and after them? (Meaning skills like sprint would carry them past the changeover point) If not this sounds like it would not be a bad idea either.

And lastly, is the non-nexus Prime-Faethorn rift to Tolborolla permanent? Also, I seem to recall being able to make random non-permanent rifts between planes, and can't recall how that worked.