Hell, Eventru practically counted the days off for us till we could raid them again and we did and they died again.

Urazial's comments are misguided. I'm not thinking of Celest only and don't need to "get over myself". I'm making the argument that this transcends organizations and that past organizations have the same player attrition, which is no good for anybody in the game.

That would open up a huge can of worms!

Estarrowned.

I'm not sure what your argument is, or at least what solution (if any) you are advocating. If a player organization "loses" or is weak, are you suggesting that all aspects of that organization become invulnerable until they become strong again? What, mechanically, would you see that would solve the perceived problem?

We could just remove all aspects of organization vs. organization conflict. I've entertained this before and it WOULD make the game less stressful (i.e., more fun?) for more people. However, I also do keep hearing that people want the conflict. Is there a middle road? How would you define it? (Don't say you just want to open up the discussion for drawing lines... what are the lines you are suggesting?) Most importantly, how would you enforce it? Admin oversight that we just decide who needs protecting and who doesn't? That would open up a huge can of worms!

You really don't have any useful input, huh? That's okay, on the plus side you can spell, don't have horrendous grammar, and don't proclaim false facts like Krin.

Tack on a No-PK tag to characters who want it. Maybe it's purchasable for 50 cr, and it makes you un-PK-able. It also make you unable to PK others. You have to pay 100cr to be PK-able again, or maybe you can enable No-PK once a month with the artifact, and the No-PK status would last the whole month. Make it so that people with a No-PK status can lose experience equivalent to dying from losing a debate. That way, those who want to fight can, and those who don't want to... well, don't. So you aren't being forced to defend then. You aren't being forced to raid. No one can scold you for it. There'll be conflict still, but if you take the role of a pacifist, that's just something you'll have to deal with and sigh when your supernals/demonlords/avatars are slain.

Of course, people will say this is a bad idea, but it's an idea to throw out there at any rate.

At the end of the day, Raziela is the one that's been griefed the most by this event and by the prior Muud event.

Doesn't anyone care about the poor little Supernal?

I'm really quite amused by this thread.

As I recall, Estarra posted at some point that it shouldn't be possible to nuke a construct (let alone 4) in a single weakening. This was, as I understood it, independent of anyone defending them whatsoever largely because the randomness of the times make it very difficult for people who work and go to school to be around 24/7. I don't care what time the construct weakening is if I have a test the next day - I'm not going to be here at odd hours when I need to be sleeping.

I really don't see what Shuyin and several other people's points are. I read them to be as follows: If person X or Y had used grace, he or she could have potentially saved 1-2 constructs. This of course would be quite moot because 2 of them would still be down, and the other 2 would still be massively weakened for round 2. Would buying time to prevent the inevitable at this point really matter?

=====+=====

This all being said, I really am waiting for the administration to make their move as I think a lot of people in Celest are. I rather lack the time or energy to fix the administration's event generated problems (starting with Raziela being sucked into Muud, Raziela being bound, involving a handful of indecisive people to try and fix her in turn allowing an organized coalition to strike, etc). Celest is really in a shitty position at the moment, and while I'm opt to blame the incompetent few that were involved in seeing this happen, I think deep down that this entire series of issues all stemmed from that stupid Raziela event where Celest had no real say whatsoever as we were faced off against Magnagora/Glomdoring/Serenwilde all at once.

I'm just not impressed with the administrative concession of throwing us Magnagora as an ally and expecting it to do any real good when Magnagora and Celest combined are simply smaller in number and skill at the moment than Serenwilde and Glomdoring. But we'll see. I'm not losing sleep over trying to fix their mess. I'm not even trying, and I've detached myself from caring. Malicia has largely done the same. Desitrus has done this, and I think most of Celest that gives a damn at this point are people who cannot do a single thing to fix the problems.

That's an idea we threw around before Lusternia opened and ultimately rejected. There is too much mischief that PK flags cause that we would rather all players be open to PK. Instead, we developed the Avenger system to regulate PK. In any event, if you are immune to PK, why should you be able to go to combat areas to begin with? Why wouldn't you be restricted from the planes or any combat area? Otherwise you could (at least) spy on other teams or otherwise make a nuisance of yourself. If we attempt to block whatever way you could be a nuisance, we'd be forever trying to accommodate those with a pacifist flag. For that matter, if we have to restrict pacifists (i.e., no-PK flagged individuals) from going to other planes, then you could just not go to other planes and thus there would be no need for any sort of flag.

BTW, no one can "force" you to defend or raid. If you are a noncombatant, RP it and stick with it, and then people will respect you for it. Really, they will. However, if you are only a pacifist when the odds are against you, then be prepared to be open to some criticism.

As a side note, you can't blame point 4 on the admin. That was the fault of the Star Council; namely, me, Raikogen, Telperion, Yurika, Mitch, and Steingrim. Carry on.

EDIT: Though, I didn't know that we had to take down the Avatars to unbind Raziela until the day of the forestal counterattack. I'm not so sure whose fault that is, though once I found about it, I had serious doubts about going through with the plan. I mean, when it was just Maeve it was all fun and games. But when it was Maeve and TWO AVATARS? No offense, but I remembered the raids Narsrim was talking about. I knew enough about the old Eth to know you didn't just go waltz in and take down an Avatar like you did a Supernal.

My entire point is that it should not be up to a small number of players to keep the rest of the org in the dark.