Unknown2009-06-28 04:57:29
It is valid for culture, but it would also be just as valid, however, if raising the TBC only stopped bards and scholars from contributing culture points and power from anywhere put the raising org instead of stopping them from being led around at all and hurting novices.
Xenthos2009-06-28 05:31:11
QUOTE (Lendren @ Jun 28 2009, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Once or twice, months and months ago, TBC was actually used for that purpose; and at that point, the idea that TBC could be a legitimate conflict quest was merely a tremendously inadequate counterargument to the many ways in which it is bad for the game. But that was a long time ago. It hasn't even been tried to be used that way in ages, and now, that argument isn't merely inadequate, it's entirely moot, entirely irrelevant. But no argument on this forum can be complete without precisely that sort of dismissive irrelevancy.
What worries me is that the admins actually believe that it is still a conflict quest, and that the people complaining about it are complaining about the conflict, and that's why the complaints are ignored. That's the whole "ivory tower" syndrome, and precisely the one that Lusternia's admins are usually so good at avoiding.
(The point of my idea where you lose culture doing it unless you actually play out the conflict quest part, is to force it to be the conflict quest that you, Azoth, and the admins imagine it to be, by making it impractical to use it any other way. Since you're so sure it already is that, that wouldn't be any problem at all, right?)
What worries me is that the admins actually believe that it is still a conflict quest, and that the people complaining about it are complaining about the conflict, and that's why the complaints are ignored. That's the whole "ivory tower" syndrome, and precisely the one that Lusternia's admins are usually so good at avoiding.
(The point of my idea where you lose culture doing it unless you actually play out the conflict quest part, is to force it to be the conflict quest that you, Azoth, and the admins imagine it to be, by making it impractical to use it any other way. Since you're so sure it already is that, that wouldn't be any problem at all, right?)
Hint: It's being used for that purpose right now. At least, that's his hope.
It is easier when the culture counts are closer together, but the Knowledge Domoth makes it a whole lot more plausible.
Your suggestion just makes it more difficult to use it for the "intended purpose".
Lendren2009-06-28 14:02:12
If that were true, Xenthos, it would be easily remedied by tweaking the numbers. But we wouldn't want to break precedent by letting truth get in the way.
At least the backpedaling and retroactive justification is forcing the followthrough that's been missing in favor of hypocrisy for so long. But the moment attention slips from the topic, we'll be right back to the usual behavior of going far enough to hurt people and test limits, and then stopping.
At least the backpedaling and retroactive justification is forcing the followthrough that's been missing in favor of hypocrisy for so long. But the moment attention slips from the topic, we'll be right back to the usual behavior of going far enough to hurt people and test limits, and then stopping.
Xenthos2009-06-28 14:04:15
QUOTE (Lendren @ Jun 28 2009, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If that were true, Xenthos, it would be easily remedied by tweaking the numbers. But we wouldn't want to break precedent by letting truth get in the way.
What truth? You're just throwing up one-sided opinions, so far. :/
Yes, it has been used as an annoyance. No, it has not been used as "only an annoyance" in recent times.
The proof:
**************The Culture of the Great Alliance of Glomdoring**************
Fastest Growing Library: 300
Credibility Rating: 300 (+150 Credibility Bonus)
Third Scholarly Library: 75
Third Literary Library: 75
Theater Activity: 419
Theater Score: 103
Cultural Activity: 417 (31%) (Highest +100 point bonus)
Visiting Scholars: 585
Visiting Bards: 149
Cultural Center Bonus: 1000
CULTURE TOTAL: 3423
Lendren2009-06-28 14:08:04
Yes, it has. That you went back and did it now once you've been called on it does not erase the last few months. Except for you, perhaps, but nothing new there. The world didn't start this morning, Xenthos. Yesterday still counts.
Xenthos2009-06-28 14:15:00
QUOTE (Lendren @ Jun 28 2009, 10:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, it has. That you went back and did it now once you've been called on it does not erase the last few months. Except for you, perhaps, but nothing new there. The world didn't start this morning, Xenthos. Yesterday still counts.
How about the fact that we were doing this before your post "calling" us on it? We were already 150 scholars and 80 or so bards in and the gap was closing when you made your post. Krellan was pushing people to take advantage of it to get cultural center. Your post had no influence on it. At all.
The world doesn't revolve around you, either... and the fact that it can and has been used for its intended purpose (including in recent memory) means that it has been used for its intended purpose. Recently. Despite your claim otherwise.
All my post in response to you was saying was that it was being used as intended this time from what I saw, and hey-- it was true.
Lendren2009-06-28 14:48:59
Xenthos, believe what you want to believe. But it just happens that you're actually strengthening my argument. You just don't realize it yet.
The fact is that, in a much less public way, I drew attention to the way Globglob being raised led to no increase in gathering bards and scholars, not even that increase that a single person might cause, several weeks ago. And in the ensuing weeks the same pattern held. Globglob would be raised and the difference in culture would be zero, the bards wouldn't even be gathered by the person who raised him, let alone his city/commune-mates. He would be used solely to annoy, at the cost of the game's health, with no attempt and no intent to use him as a culture weapon. Over and over and over and over. Consistently.
Then, in the last few days, some public outcry, like this thread (not my post in it, but this thread... how stupid do you think people are?), was made, and it reached the ears of you and people like you, and suddenly the story changed. Suddenly Glomdoring is falling all over itself to follow through on the culture weapon thing and then to proclaim about it very loudly. The lady doth protest way too much, methinks. The louder you shout "look at what we're doing now" the more you emphasize that up until now you weren't, and thus, the only reason you're doing it now is because you got caught. Which might have worked if no one was looking until now, until it got so publicly noticeable that even you knew about it.
But the record is there to be read for those who really need to read it. Now all that remains is to see what they think of the fact that you did precisely what I said you'd be doing, time and time again, until you became aware you were being watched, and then immediately did precisely the opposite as loudly as you could. Hopefully this tacit admission of guilt will impel some action. At very least, as long as we can keep the scrutiny on you, you'll be forced to keep doing what you never did before in order to continue claiming that you always did it, so some good will come of this. But I doubt the scrutiny will last, and it's really beside the point.
Because even when Globglob is used as a culture weapon, that's still entirely inadequate as a counter to the harm he does to the game as a whole. That he is virtually never used that way is a trivial detail, because even if he were always used that way, he would still be a bad, bad mistake. But feel free to dwell on that trivial detail if you like. You may be fooling some people, notably yourself, but all that matters is if you're fooling the people whose opinions matter. And your ham-handed attempts to fool them are probably doing the opposite. So thanks for proving my point for me.
The fact is that, in a much less public way, I drew attention to the way Globglob being raised led to no increase in gathering bards and scholars, not even that increase that a single person might cause, several weeks ago. And in the ensuing weeks the same pattern held. Globglob would be raised and the difference in culture would be zero, the bards wouldn't even be gathered by the person who raised him, let alone his city/commune-mates. He would be used solely to annoy, at the cost of the game's health, with no attempt and no intent to use him as a culture weapon. Over and over and over and over. Consistently.
Then, in the last few days, some public outcry, like this thread (not my post in it, but this thread... how stupid do you think people are?), was made, and it reached the ears of you and people like you, and suddenly the story changed. Suddenly Glomdoring is falling all over itself to follow through on the culture weapon thing and then to proclaim about it very loudly. The lady doth protest way too much, methinks. The louder you shout "look at what we're doing now" the more you emphasize that up until now you weren't, and thus, the only reason you're doing it now is because you got caught. Which might have worked if no one was looking until now, until it got so publicly noticeable that even you knew about it.
But the record is there to be read for those who really need to read it. Now all that remains is to see what they think of the fact that you did precisely what I said you'd be doing, time and time again, until you became aware you were being watched, and then immediately did precisely the opposite as loudly as you could. Hopefully this tacit admission of guilt will impel some action. At very least, as long as we can keep the scrutiny on you, you'll be forced to keep doing what you never did before in order to continue claiming that you always did it, so some good will come of this. But I doubt the scrutiny will last, and it's really beside the point.
Because even when Globglob is used as a culture weapon, that's still entirely inadequate as a counter to the harm he does to the game as a whole. That he is virtually never used that way is a trivial detail, because even if he were always used that way, he would still be a bad, bad mistake. But feel free to dwell on that trivial detail if you like. You may be fooling some people, notably yourself, but all that matters is if you're fooling the people whose opinions matter. And your ham-handed attempts to fool them are probably doing the opposite. So thanks for proving my point for me.
Xenthos2009-06-28 15:01:16
And your facts are still not very accurate, because I haven't led a single bard or scholar (though I did catch one of each this morning and gave them to a novice, that's the only one in this drive). When I look at our logs, it is not the established forum-goers who are doing it. It is young people, who have been told they can make a difference... and, in fact, are making a difference!
So, I don't know what you are talking about. I have never said he wasn't used to annoy (there have been times when he was raised to do exactly that). What I said was that this time, he was not raised with that intent. You went off ranting that he obviously was, that he was never going to be used for the "intended purpose," that it was just some kind of evil plot. The fact remains: When you made your post stating that he was not being "used as intended," he was. The culture count is close enough for it to make a difference, the Knowledge domoth is blessing scholars, and the time was right to make the push.
Krellan is the one who made the push to encourage the young to get involved. Do you really think he cares what you say on the forums about him? I say all kinds of things to his face that he just laughs off
.
This thread had nothing to do with it. Your post, especially, had nothing to do with it-- it had already begun before your post. You're just desperate to try to swing this in your favour, but I'm not buying it. It can, and has, been used for its intended purpose. That purpose is that it can dramatically shift the culture totals around. It has a side effect of annoying a lot of players, which isn't great, but I am disputing your base claim. The evidence bears me out. We have, in the past, consistently used it to take Cultural Center when we were within a few hundred base points... and we've managed to use it when the base difference is even greater, with difficulty.
So, I don't know what you are talking about. I have never said he wasn't used to annoy (there have been times when he was raised to do exactly that). What I said was that this time, he was not raised with that intent. You went off ranting that he obviously was, that he was never going to be used for the "intended purpose," that it was just some kind of evil plot. The fact remains: When you made your post stating that he was not being "used as intended," he was. The culture count is close enough for it to make a difference, the Knowledge domoth is blessing scholars, and the time was right to make the push.
Krellan is the one who made the push to encourage the young to get involved. Do you really think he cares what you say on the forums about him? I say all kinds of things to his face that he just laughs off
.This thread had nothing to do with it. Your post, especially, had nothing to do with it-- it had already begun before your post. You're just desperate to try to swing this in your favour, but I'm not buying it. It can, and has, been used for its intended purpose. That purpose is that it can dramatically shift the culture totals around. It has a side effect of annoying a lot of players, which isn't great, but I am disputing your base claim. The evidence bears me out. We have, in the past, consistently used it to take Cultural Center when we were within a few hundred base points... and we've managed to use it when the base difference is even greater, with difficulty.
Zynna2009-06-28 15:05:29
Sadly Celest can never take advantage of this to help with its culture because it's a 'tainted' broadcast center...
Xenthos2009-06-28 15:09:57
QUOTE (Zynna @ Jun 28 2009, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sadly Celest can never take advantage of this to help with its culture because it's a 'tainted' broadcast center...
Honestly? Celest "uses" Magnagora (not just a tainted broadcasting center, but an entire tainted organization) when it feels it really needs to. It would cause controversy, but Celest does have a history of "using" the taint when it needs to.
It would be a pretty tough sell, admittedly. Either way, it is up to Celest to determine if the gain is worth the cost.
Lendren2009-06-28 15:11:25
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Jun 28 2009, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Krellan is the one who made the push to encourage the young to get involved. Do you really think he cares what you say on the forums about him?
No. He cares precisely about what he can get away with, no more and no less, as always. When he realized that his ability to get away with something was being threatened, he took whatever steps necessary to protect it. This thread is besides the point.
This thread is not the only or even the important public comments about this to which he is reacting, though maybe it's the only one you became aware of. That the people he's gotten to gather bards aren't forum-goers is so beside the point it's not even in the same room as the point. And even if this thread were the whole story, the dates on it say a different thing on my screen than on yours. What remains inescapable is that he took action to retroactively justify his actions after scores of times when he took no such action, and only when he knew it was being watched. That Globglob can be used does not at all disprove that he virtually never is. You're not distracting anyone from any of that, anyone who matters.
Xenthos2009-06-28 15:19:43
QUOTE (Lendren @ Jun 28 2009, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No. He cares precisely about what he can get away with, no more and no less, as always. When he realized that his ability to get away with something was being threatened, he took whatever steps necessary to protect it.
You're so off base in your attempts to refute the point that it's embarassing. This thread is not the only or even the important public comments about this to which he is reacting. That the people he's gotten to gather bards aren't forum-goers is so beside the point it's not even in the same room as the point. And even if this thread were the whole story, the dates on it say a different thing on my screen than on yours. What remains inescapable is that he took action to retroactively justify his actions after scores of times when he took no such action, and only when he knew it was being watched. You're not distracting anyone from that, anyone who matters.
You're so off base in your attempts to refute the point that it's embarassing. This thread is not the only or even the important public comments about this to which he is reacting. That the people he's gotten to gather bards aren't forum-goers is so beside the point it's not even in the same room as the point. And even if this thread were the whole story, the dates on it say a different thing on my screen than on yours. What remains inescapable is that he took action to retroactively justify his actions after scores of times when he took no such action, and only when he knew it was being watched. You're not distracting anyone from that, anyone who matters.
No.
You are correct that he cares about what he can get away with, but he does actually try to push for more. He noticed that, given the numbers, this might actually work out... and so he pushed for it. You are, as far as I am aware, the only person who has posted on these forums that it is "not being used as intended". I still dispute that claim. I have thrown a lot of evidence at you. You choose to dismiss it out-of-hand, but that does not mean it does not exist, or that other readers will not see it. How did he "know he was being watched" when your assertion had not even been made yet? The only changes that had happened were some needed bug-fixes, and the only other suggestions were improvements to the counter-quest. You are the only one who has been railing on about the "fact" that he is only raised to annoy people.
Which, admittedly, he has. Just not every time. That was my entire point, and that is the one you are trying to bury under lengthy dissertations-- because it is pretty obvious that it is the truth. The proof can be found with CULTURE.
You're claiming that your posts have done something to make him "work harder". You're claiming that your posts are inspiring hordes of Glomdoring young to gather bards and scholars. You're claiming that this is all some giant conspiracy to make your efforts to "fix it" harder. Seriously?
Lendren2009-06-28 16:26:12
"Giant conspiracy?" Xenthos, a hallmark of a solid argument is that there's no need to change the point being argued. Try it sometime. For me, I'll let the record, the facts, speak. Nothing I say or you twist out of what I say is going to change it anyway. All that remains is to see if the record is acted upon.
Xenthos2009-06-28 16:36:14
QUOTE (Lendren @ Jun 28 2009, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"Giant conspiracy?" Xenthos, a hallmark of a solid argument is that there's no need to change the point being argued. Try it sometime. For me, I'll let the record, the facts, speak. Nothing I say or you twist out of what I say is going to change it anyway. All that remains is to see if the record is acted upon.
Heh. Perhaps you should, since I'm the one still standing on my original argument-- that it is not always being used for the purpose you claim. You are the one twisting, dodging, and trying to find a conspiracy here. The whole, "Oh, it's being used for that purpose NOW because I made a post!" thing, which is pretty obviously a far-fetched argument. :/
The records and facts are there. CULTURE shows the most recent version of it, and blows your first argument out of the water.
Trying to pin this on "It is only a nuisance quest" is bunk. It has a real purpose. Whether or not that purpose is valid is a different argument, but that is not the argument you are trying to make. Your entire stance is that it is only used to be a nuisance, and when it is shown that is incorrect, you still try to justify it by coming up with conspiracy theories.
Unknown2009-06-28 16:53:53
This argument seems wholly pointless. The quest won't be removed. The TBC is an effective tool in taking Cultural Centre. It is also used to annoy (though Krellan plays to win, not annoy). And, as Celest has teamed up with Magnagora, The City Stuffed Full of Tainted People, Some of the Mugwump Variety, in recent times, I don't see why the TBC could not also be used.
That said, Alianna's points of how easy the counter-quest is to disrupt are valid. Then again, the original-quest can be disrupted, too.
FURTHERMORE.
That said, Alianna's points of how easy the counter-quest is to disrupt are valid. Then again, the original-quest can be disrupted, too.
FURTHERMORE.
Furien2009-06-28 16:56:10
Let's talk about the Tainted Broadcasting Centre's convictions. Let's talk about them in a very specific and personal way. I would like to start by discussing the Tainted Broadcasting Centre's vituperations, mainly because they scare me. The thing I'm the most frightened about is that as soon as the Tainted Broadcasting Centre found the resources to do so it lost no time in destroying our moral fiber. The inevitable followed: Unctuous, mindless spivs started to divert our attention from serious issues. The scariest part of all of this is that some people have indicated that the Tainted Broadcasting Centre's hallucinations about the benefits of sesquipedalianism are so deep and inveterate that they can be broken, if at all, only if we convince the government to clamp down hard on its bons mots. I can neither confirm nor deny that statement, but I can say that the Tainted Broadcasting Centre hates it when you say that it isn't as smart as it thinks it is. It really hates it when you say that. Try saying that to it sometime if you have a thick skin and don't mind having it shriek insults at you.
Because the Tainted Broadcasting Centre wasn't listening when I said this before, I'm forced to repeat myself: The Tainted Broadcasting Centre has a vested interest in maintaining the myths that keep its retinue loyal to it. Its principal myth is that the world is crying out to labor beneath its firm but benevolent heel. The truth is that the Tainted Broadcasting Centre's faculty for deception is so far above anyone else's, it really must be considered different in kind as well as in degree. The Tainted Broadcasting Centre is undeniably up to something. I don't know exactly what, but it once had the audacity to tell me that its litanies can give us deeper insights into the nature of reality. My riposte was that it operates on an international scale to poison the relationship between teacher and student. It's only fitting, therefore, that we, too, work on an international scale, but to speak up and speak out against the Tainted Broadcasting Centre. I want nothing more—or less—than to act honorably. To that task I have consecrated my life and I invite you to do likewise.
In my view, some people apparently believe that if we don't bother the Tainted Broadcasting Centre, the Tainted Broadcasting Centre won't bother us. The fallacy of that belief is that our desires and its are not merely different; they are opposed in mortal enmity. The Tainted Broadcasting Centre wants to besmirch the memory of some genuine historic figures. We, in contrast, want to alert people that I myself doubtlessly dislike it. Likes or dislikes, however, are irrelevant to observed facts, such as that the Tainted Broadcasting Centre claims that its off-the-cuff comments epitomize wholesome family entertainment. I would say that that claim is 70% folderol, 20% twaddle, and 10% another obtrusive attempt to redefine humanity as alienated machines/beasts and then convince everyone that they were never human to begin with. I'll end this letter with a personal invitation to the Tainted Broadcasting Centre itself: If you care to respond to what I wrote, please do, especially if you think that I am being inaccurate or unfair. I do not wish to misrepresent you in any way whatsoever. Pax vobiscum.
Because the Tainted Broadcasting Centre wasn't listening when I said this before, I'm forced to repeat myself: The Tainted Broadcasting Centre has a vested interest in maintaining the myths that keep its retinue loyal to it. Its principal myth is that the world is crying out to labor beneath its firm but benevolent heel. The truth is that the Tainted Broadcasting Centre's faculty for deception is so far above anyone else's, it really must be considered different in kind as well as in degree. The Tainted Broadcasting Centre is undeniably up to something. I don't know exactly what, but it once had the audacity to tell me that its litanies can give us deeper insights into the nature of reality. My riposte was that it operates on an international scale to poison the relationship between teacher and student. It's only fitting, therefore, that we, too, work on an international scale, but to speak up and speak out against the Tainted Broadcasting Centre. I want nothing more—or less—than to act honorably. To that task I have consecrated my life and I invite you to do likewise.
In my view, some people apparently believe that if we don't bother the Tainted Broadcasting Centre, the Tainted Broadcasting Centre won't bother us. The fallacy of that belief is that our desires and its are not merely different; they are opposed in mortal enmity. The Tainted Broadcasting Centre wants to besmirch the memory of some genuine historic figures. We, in contrast, want to alert people that I myself doubtlessly dislike it. Likes or dislikes, however, are irrelevant to observed facts, such as that the Tainted Broadcasting Centre claims that its off-the-cuff comments epitomize wholesome family entertainment. I would say that that claim is 70% folderol, 20% twaddle, and 10% another obtrusive attempt to redefine humanity as alienated machines/beasts and then convince everyone that they were never human to begin with. I'll end this letter with a personal invitation to the Tainted Broadcasting Centre itself: If you care to respond to what I wrote, please do, especially if you think that I am being inaccurate or unfair. I do not wish to misrepresent you in any way whatsoever. Pax vobiscum.
Xenthos2009-06-28 17:27:31
Fill-in-the-form ranting is fun?
Shaddus2009-06-28 17:48:20
-popcorn-
Mirami2009-06-28 18:47:50
I have to come in with Lendren on this one, actually- for a long, long time, the TBC has been underused in the Cultural sense. only recently has it been taken advantage of in the hundreds of bards/scholars that were so nobly presented earlier. I would say that if most of the personal rewards were removed from doing the quest that put it up, it would be better used for it's intended purpose, and would serve absolutely no other purpose. Although, I agree with Lendren that the best solution would be to have it drain culture while it's up, thus forcing it to be used for the intended purpose.
Also, for good measure, I'll repeat what Lendren said before- If that's the case, and you bring in hundreds of bards/scholars (as you just proved that you could), a culture drain, even a very large one, wouldn't matter- All it would do is ensure that nobody would raise the TBC for personal gain only, thus confirming it's purpose as a culture conflict quest.
Also, for good measure, I'll repeat what Lendren said before- If that's the case, and you bring in hundreds of bards/scholars (as you just proved that you could), a culture drain, even a very large one, wouldn't matter- All it would do is ensure that nobody would raise the TBC for personal gain only, thus confirming it's purpose as a culture conflict quest.
Xenthos2009-06-28 20:20:33
QUOTE (Romertien @ Jun 28 2009, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have to come in with Lendren on this one, actually- for a long, long time, the TBC has been underused in the Cultural sense. only recently has it been taken advantage of in the hundreds of bards/scholars that were so nobly presented earlier. I would say that if most of the personal rewards were removed from doing the quest that put it up, it would be better used for it's intended purpose, and would serve absolutely no other purpose. Although, I agree with Lendren that the best solution would be to have it drain culture while it's up, thus forcing it to be used for the intended purpose.
Also, for good measure, I'll repeat what Lendren said before- If that's the case, and you bring in hundreds of bards/scholars (as you just proved that you could), a culture drain, even a very large one, wouldn't matter- All it would do is ensure that nobody would raise the TBC for personal gain only, thus confirming it's purpose as a culture conflict quest.
Also, for good measure, I'll repeat what Lendren said before- If that's the case, and you bring in hundreds of bards/scholars (as you just proved that you could), a culture drain, even a very large one, wouldn't matter- All it would do is ensure that nobody would raise the TBC for personal gain only, thus confirming it's purpose as a culture conflict quest.
Sure it would. A culture drain, even a large one, means that you have to collect even more... which makes it harder to use it for that purpose. Draining culture is just going against its entire reason (and, as I said, it doesn't even really make sense in the frame he put it up as).
Also: It's not done for the personal rewards, by Krellan at least.
Like it or not, this is its intended purpose. It has a side effect of being an annoyance to novices, which can be frustrating and which can be an issue if it's done for that, but really now. If you don't like it, you could actually destroy it. It was up for hours this morning as Lendren posted complaints, nobody defending it.
The real issue is the efforts to keep it up, extending the effects, imo.
