Room conceal needs to be removed or the local-area reconceal should be added. The original idea what that it'd cost 10p to reconceal any local traps. Now mind you, it wouldn't have any effect on darts, springtraps, snares and the like. So basically you'd be spending an entire 10 power just to conceal pits only after a large battle. It was suggested for convenience more than anything else. Synl or some other envoy argued that it'd be overpowered. So instead of something that'd be somewhat useful, they give trackers something utterly worthless. Why anyone would spend 3 power to conceal traps in a room is beyond me. It doesn't scale either- so if you're in a room with five exits and only one trap was fired, you're still wasting 3p to reconceal it. What a marvelous addition to tracking. Fits in nicely with the other useless abilities.

I realize that not all skillsets need be entirely amazing, but it should have a few gems to offset the drawbacks. Dmp, zilch. Bells- waste of commodities. Trackers should be able to automatically detect when a trap is fired. Would be nice if snakepits were worth the trouble. As I see it, for 300 credits, a transed ability should be worth it.

I believe springtraps shouldn't vanish after one use. They can be tripped and lose their direction specifications, but it'd be nice if they remained. Would also like to see a new trap added. Something that allows you to roll a boulder into a room and squish a target. Or giant swinging pendulums made out of tree trunks that come swinging in to impale a victim. That'd be ossom.

Would be nice if you could cloak yourself as well as the dog, for some invisibility on actions/movements.

Bloodthirst reeks, but that was already mentioned.

Give trackers some dmp! Doesn't have to be good as drawdown or nightkiss or anything, but something! At least increased resistance in natural, earthy environments. Forests or what have you.

Edit: And before I forget, dodging + warriors = overpowered.

If you're in a room with 5 exits and only 1 trap was fired... can't you just, y'know, reconceal that trap instead of spending 3p? The same way you would previously? The ability just lets you reconceal all the traps at once for a power cost instead of having to do them 1-by-1.

Also, reconcealing all pits in an area on demand with 1 command is definitely overpowered. Unless we want to nerf pits a bit more. This way you (the tracker) need to spend a bit of time resetting, just like a Mage/Druid would after their demesne has been getting broken. You have a power option to save time, or you can do it the old-fashioned way.

(PS: Others don't seem to find the bells a waste of commodities. If you've already got spectacles, then sure, you don't really need the bells-- but otherwise knowing the moment an enemy hits a trap isn't a bad thing at all. Especially if you're smart about it and only put bells on the traps where people are likely to enter)

Every time I try to conceal a trap in a room it tells me it's already concealed . I have no idea why.

Bells are indeed worthless. Yay my trap went off! It's 8 rooms away, hope I can get there before they mo-- awwww, they're gone! Plus it's what, 2 silver for a bell? The bell is the single most expensive thing on a trap and it's not even part of the trap itself.

I transed Tracking merely out of principle. I haven't once laid a snake pit, because when I know I need a trap, I don't have the time to go out and search for 5 snakes to catch and bring them back to the place I need them, hopefully before I lose the snakes.

We do have camouflage already-- I know it doesn't work everywhere, but Hunters and Trackers were built to be wild environment people, I think it makes a little sense that we can only hide ourselves in natural environments. Of course, that kinda screws the city Trackers. Maybe give commune Hunters Camouflage in natural environments and cities an equivalent in a different environment, sort of like how we have Headhunter/Trohpy?

Down with Bloodthirst.

I'd like a bit of tank, yesplz .

And yes, please no dodging... I hate it when someone else uses it against me, I'd hate it just as much using it against someone else.

Speak for yourself. I've talked to trackers in the Paladins and well lookee there, Everrine also agrees that the bells are a bit much. Two silver? Why can't we find ourselves alerted to when a trap is fired, similar to how a mage might be alerted when someone steps foot into their meld?

And no, sorry. Area conceal for 10p is NOT overpowered. Something that costs 10p, thus negating your power offense just to conceal a portion of your traps in the area is -not-, I repeat -not- overpowered. If you feel it's unnecessary, fine- but I really can't see how it's overpowered.

We're discussing improvements to tracking overall. The skillset is terribly lacking. Perhaps you abhor the thought an upgrade if you're not going to benefit, but honestly.

Not at all. I've even suggested upgrades to tracking, as well as supporting them-- depending on balance. Further note that I am not discussing the use of bells as a "Hey, let's race to the room where they triggered the trap". It's not going to be the best in that case. It can, however, be a very effective note that an enemy has just come into the area, or that they are trying to circle around the back. There are other ways of doing this (scent, spectacles), but both of these require a credit investment. WHO is unreliable, scrying takes equilibrium, and all of these except the spectacles require actively checking. The answer is not to use bells on every single trap (yes, this will get expensive), but to pick and choose where they need to be used.

At least, with the current setup.

They are not useless. Not so great for the intended purpose, perhaps, and perhaps they could use some tweaking-- but arguing that it needs tweaking because it is useless just isn't true.

Further, yes, we're discussing improvements to tracking. The key word here is "discussing". This means that people are allowed to actually... discuss the ideas. Including disagreeing with some of the suggestions.

It's fine to disagree, but I'm not sure it's necessary for you to try and spell out the benefits of any particular ability when the purpose of this thread was to look at what's lacking. Bells was mentioned as a costly addition and while most trackers know to conserve resources (Traps are not cheap), it'd be nice if we didn't -have- to, hence the suggestion of -improving- it. I'd like to be notified if any trap goes off in local area. I don't think it'd be too much.

Edit: I mean we can't all have something as smexy as crow's eyeball. :>

Here's a thought. Take the environment-based abilities further.

Let them specialize again in one of the environments (Mountainhunter, Treehunter, whatever), and give them them debilitating abilities based on their environment. If a Treehunter specialist is hitting you in the trees, maybe you'd have your dex reduced and balance slowed. Fighting Mountainhunter specialists in the mountains sucks because they're really good at shoving you against cliff faces and such, making you bleed or breaking your bones a lot.

I dunno, I don't know much at all about warrior and/or tracker combat, but giving them increased abilities in one or two environments at a time seems to be one way to go.

Edit: You could make traps better in the chosen environment, even. Lower comms, faster balance, more damage/faster affliction, etc.

And, at the same time, I wanted to point out that perhaps it wasn't being talked about in the way that it is most beneficial. It's another way to look at it, and to consider when adjusting functionality. At this point I wouldn't have a huge objection to having a trap give a warning if you're in the local area (either every time, or a % chance so it's not instant), with bells being able to tell you anywhere on the plane (if the first was a percent chance you could use bells on traps in the local area that you have to know when an enemy hits it), or it can be used as kind of a "demesne watch" / ancestral spirit kind of thing if the local area part is a 100%.

In terms of "traps are not cheap": Traps would be a lot cheaper if you disarmed them every time. A number of trackers go out and fund all of their trap-building by disarming the stuff you leave all over the place. Your purchases fund 2-3 other trackers beyond yourself, too. Of course there is still a large initial investment and you still lose what others disarm during the fight, but the cost will go down considerably for you.

(Seriously, when I hear people reporting that they got 700 lumber in an hour by disarming all of your traps... heh. I understand that you want to leave them so they're still there next time, but that's a gamble and increases costs considerably when you lose)

Considering the fact that most traps are laid in enemy territory, it isn't always practical to go skipping around disarming. The balance time on it is annoying. I take every trap laid as a loss. And what are the limitations on crow's spy ability? Trans trackers should be able to detect whenever any trap in their area is fired and not feel required to buy spectacles or scent arties. Scent being something communes get for free, btw.

Really, tracking is one of those skillsets that has some real underlying issues involved. It could probably have used a special report back when that was en vouge, but seeing as Harmony's looking over has been beaten senseless and left in the closet for months (and half the monks in the basin have to take harmony), that's probably not an effective option.

So, I'm looking more to envoy a few simple changes that will make the skillset less unappealing, taking somewhat of a conservative stance in doing so. That is, keeping it simple. Keeping it easily discussable, not trying to revolutionize the skillset, or make suggestions that are so involved that they would be inappropriate to try and cram into an envoy fix.

After substantial conversations on dodging, it probably isn't the best option. My current report, 244, has been finalized for some time now, and involves armouring the bonds, for reasons explained in detail in the report.

I've had few suggestions sent to me as well, and have also been told that adding some DMP into the DMPless skillset would be incredibly welcome. I think a general, condition free 15 DMP would flesh out tracking's defensive options nicely, assuming 244 goes through, and make the class feel much less like a knight that didn't take a tertiary once that trap hit is expended.

Another thought that was brought up to me, and am toying with, would be an improvement to the rate that trackers land poisons. Trackers are more reliant than any other knight archetype on their poisons- both directly, as traps make use of them, and indirectly, as they have to lean harder than any other archetype on the basic knight skillset in actual combat due to tracking lacking the passive and direct options of other tertiaries. A better poison hit rate makes sense thematically, as trackers make heavy use of poisons and routinely handle venemous snakes (in theory), as well giving the skillset a little bit of a leg up from bottom of the barrel once they're actually swinging offensively.


Generally, I feel a few simple, direct changes could shore up tracking very nicely. They won't really fix the skillset entirely, but doing that seems rather outside the scope of the envoy system.

And, to be fair, those big lumber totals came from things like, disarming the seren nexus world a number of months ago, where near every room had every exit trapped. Or Etherwilde after they raid. I don't even go onto water or Celestia, I assume they're carpeted (though, not with pits on water obviously). It's right that she considers those traps in enemy territory a loss, as they're quite literally in the home territory of the org she's fighting, and she can't exactly say "Oh hey, leave me alone while I run around using balance to disarm traps to get the commodities back, and probably fall in my own pits now and again while I'm at it."

Thanks, Rainy. Oh and has anyone ever played Kagero Deception? I used to be soooo addicted to that game years ago. Anyways, it had the coolest traps ever. Trackers need some new, creative traps.

RAKE

Syntax: LAY RAKE

Simple in design, this trap is nothing more than a cleverly concealed rake. When stepped on, the rake swings up and smacks the enemy in the face, stunning them momentarily and causing stupidity. Dude, you stepped on a rake. Come on.

Commodities: iron 1 wood 1

Crow spy requires being online, but not same area/same plane. However, they cost 1-3p each (depending on Crowform) plus a regeneration application, can't be buried anywhere one cannot dig (so, not indoors, super-rocky terrain where it is too hard to dig, water). Anyone has the ability to dig them up and remove them, and they also decay on their own.

To compare to traps, traps can only be removed by another tracker, don't decay, have a different cost (comms instead of power), but don't fire unless the tracker is both online and in the same area. I actually think it might be kind of neat if bells worked even without the trap technically firing, though, as long as the tracker is on the same plane (or, maybe make the bells a trap of their own instead. A bell-trap that does not require being in the area, just on the same plane. When tripped, it alerts the trapper). Hm.

Also, a lot of those comms aren't just from enemy territory, but also from places like aetherbubbles and the Domoths (since that's also where you have traditionally spent a fair bit of time fighting). Cleaning up nexus worlds / god realms of traps also really isn't as tough as, say, cleaning up Etherwilde/Etherglom/Faethorn since it's possible to spend a fair bit of time in those areas without ever being caught (and easy to escape even if caught).

Especially if you put a trap at the entrance to tell you when someone comes in! *cough*

I would fully support a Bell trap whose sole purpose is to notify the Tracker when someone enters the room.

1. Yes, I argued it was overpowered for a Tracker to be able to conceal all pits in the local area for 7-8p. I'm going to leave it up to others to figure out why.

2. Snakepits are worth the trouble. My only issue with snakepits is that snakes in the net have a -very- short reset timer. If snakes stayed in the net for, say, an hour before resetting, Snakepits would be perfect.

3. Resettable springtraps sounds nice.

4. I'd mainly like traps that deal with flyers/rooftops/treetops. Forestal Trackers actually suffer because their demesnes allow enemies to laugh @traps.

5. Camouflage. It's not perfect, but whatever.

6. Or DMP in other forms. Maybe reduced bleeding from all attacks (hardened skin, woo). Largely reduced.

7. MY GENIUS IDEA of traps returning commodities upon being disarmed has made Tracking really cheap. I always have at least 1000 wood and 200 or so Iron/Rope from just disarming all of Malicia/Ethelon's traps. Borrow cubix, go to various Planes, steal commodities, cubix back. And it makes for an easier raid for your raiding buddies.

8. Bells are stupid and I never use them. There's no point in knowing that one of my traps went off because when traps -are- going off, I'm generally... you know, with the enemy.

This

EDIT: And actually, what do the snakes in a snake pit do? I've never tried it out. Do they just afflict based on whatever snakes you have in a pit, or do they do something else?

Now, this one is easily envoyable. Consider it suggested. (This one also was not on your list of tracking ideas. Hmph.)

Yes, the snakes attack just like if they'd been aggro'd otherwise. Snakepits are actually really nice for this reason. You can do something like 2 vipers/2 cobras/1 Magnagoran Shieldbreaking Snake and it would result in: passive breakarm, blind, prone, and Circle-breaking. That's pretty much it since the only other snakes afflict with haemophilia, shyness, or clumsiness. They may have other attacks though, I don't remember things well.