Xenthos2009-07-28 02:00:05
QUOTE (Lawliet @ Jul 27 2009, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Stupid question: How do I go about seeing envoy reports?
REPORT LIST.
Or just REPORT for all the syntax.
Shaddus2009-07-28 02:27:41
I don't see people as "gaming" the system. Someone gets wtfuppercutpwnd by a skill, they obviously think it's OP, and it needs to be fixed. Hell, if I got killed a few times by Freeze in Elementalism, I'd sure try and find a way to nerf it.
Edit: For instance, I'm of the personal opinion that Raise Cudgel should only be possible in your own demesne. If you get 2-3 druids that are in the same room with cudgels, they can pick apart a group a bit too easily with Raise/Sap/bleeding from Cudgel. Why is this my opinion? Because I've seen it used against me, and I'd like to change it. It's not because I have a grudge against Glomdoring/Serenwilde/Blacktalon/Hartstone (I don't), it's because I think it's entirely too strong. Thinks like Sap/Choke shouldn't affect things that require no balance, like clot/insomnia/rift. Keep in mind, that's just my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right, but I have to base my opinions on what I've experienced. These envoys may be a bit offbase sometimes, but they are merely doing the same, trying to combat skills they believe are entirely too strong.
Edit: For instance, I'm of the personal opinion that Raise Cudgel should only be possible in your own demesne. If you get 2-3 druids that are in the same room with cudgels, they can pick apart a group a bit too easily with Raise/Sap/bleeding from Cudgel. Why is this my opinion? Because I've seen it used against me, and I'd like to change it. It's not because I have a grudge against Glomdoring/Serenwilde/Blacktalon/Hartstone (I don't), it's because I think it's entirely too strong. Thinks like Sap/Choke shouldn't affect things that require no balance, like clot/insomnia/rift. Keep in mind, that's just my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right, but I have to base my opinions on what I've experienced. These envoys may be a bit offbase sometimes, but they are merely doing the same, trying to combat skills they believe are entirely too strong.
Everiine2009-07-28 02:40:22
The problem is, everyone expects to win. If they encounter something that they can't beat, they automatically assume it's OP and needs to be nerfed so that they can use THEIR unbeatable ability to win. Newsflash, if everything could be countered every time, no one would ever lose. Just because you lost doesn't mean the skill is OP, just because you couldn't get out of it doesn't mean it is OP. Stop acting like it.
Xenthos2009-07-28 02:44:19
QUOTE (Shaddus Mes'ard @ Jul 27 2009, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't see people as "gaming" the system. Someone gets wtfuppercutpwnd by a skill, they obviously think it's OP, and it needs to be fixed. Hell, if I got killed a few times by Freeze in Elementalism, I'd sure try and find a way to nerf it.
The correct thing to do at this point, as an envoy, is to take a step back. Assess what you could have done better. Speak with others (envoys, guild members, combatants) and form a real cohesive suggestion that has a broad support base from the game's players. And then suggest an idea that is (mostly) formed. At that point, tweak it as other envoys offer comments and insight.
At every point through this, be willing to understand that perhaps you might be wrong (again, no envoy is infallible), and you might have to scrap your idea and go with something else.
Xavius2009-07-28 02:49:05
QUOTE (Shaddus Mes'ard @ Jul 27 2009, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't see people as "gaming" the system. Someone gets wtfuppercutpwnd by a skill, they obviously think it's OP, and it needs to be fixed. Hell, if I got killed a few times by Freeze in Elementalism, I'd sure try and find a way to nerf it.
See, a statement like this should blanketly render someone ineligible for consideration as envoy.
Shaddus2009-07-28 02:57:27
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Jul 27 2009, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The correct thing to do at this point, as an envoy, is to take a step back. Assess what you could have done better. Speak with others (envoys, guild members, combatants) and form a real cohesive suggestion that has a broad support base from the game's players. And then suggest an idea that is (mostly) formed. At that point, tweak it as other envoys offer comments and insight.
At every point through this, be willing to understand that perhaps you might be wrong (again, no envoy is infallible), and you might have to scrap your idea and go with something else.
At every point through this, be willing to understand that perhaps you might be wrong (again, no envoy is infallible), and you might have to scrap your idea and go with something else.
I agree 100% with this. Entirely.
You have to realize that though Lusternia is merely a game (legasp), people pour much of their emotions into it, and it gets heated sometimes if they don't get their way/don't think life is fair/someone ran over their teddybear. When you constantly get killed by someone from the "other side", too many people take it personal and get the "I'll fix them, they shouldn't have been able to kill me, they did it on purpose" mindset. I can't lie, I've done the same thing.
The other way works as well. The Blacktalon who helps defend Ethereal doesn't see his skills as OP. He sees a rampaging demigod of death and torment in his beloved forest, and he's just using what skills he has to defend said forest. Obviously if this person is the envoy, he's not going to want those meager skills nerfed into the ground, so he's going to defend them.
People just need to take a step back and quit taking Lusternia personal. Period.
Furien2009-07-28 02:59:40
Druids do need a way to knock people out of the skies with the advent of the treelife nerf to it being blocked by protection, though. The Mage versions can't be blocked with protection and if it did they have built-in Geyser, whereas Druids don't.
That is, incase anyone was actually in contention over that point, if not then ignore me.
That is, incase anyone was actually in contention over that point, if not then ignore me.
Shaddus2009-07-28 03:07:54
QUOTE (Xavius @ Jul 27 2009, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
See, a statement like this should blanketly render someone ineligible for consideration as envoy.
I think you missed the point. In other words, if I keep getting killed by a certain skill, I'll look into reducing the effectiveness of said skill if I believe it is unabalancing to the game.
Xavius2009-07-28 03:13:41
QUOTE (Shaddus Mes'ard @ Jul 27 2009, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you missed the point. In other words, if I keep getting killed by a certain skill, I'll look into reducing the effectiveness of said skill if I believe it is unabalancing to the game.
Yeah, no. When put back into the context of your original statement (if someone dies to something, they obviously think it's OP), this in no way improves your case. Losing to something consistently doesn't indicate anything other than you losing to something consistently. Maybe you suck. Maybe your system is miscoded. Maybe your system prioritizes the conditions leading to the kill ineffectively. If you're primary determinant is "this is hard for me," then you better damn well be Geb.
Xenthos2009-07-28 03:47:57
QUOTE (Xavius @ Jul 27 2009, 11:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, no. When put back into the context of your original statement (if someone dies to something, they obviously think it's OP), this in no way improves your case. Losing to something consistently doesn't indicate anything other than you losing to something consistently. Maybe you suck. Maybe your system is miscoded. Maybe your system prioritizes the conditions leading to the kill ineffectively. If you're primary determinant is "this is hard for me," then you better damn well be Geb.
(I have just sat here watching your avatar go through a full cycle to read the entire thing)
Xavius2009-07-28 04:12:09
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Jul 27 2009, 10:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(I have just sat here watching your avatar go through a full cycle to read the entire thing)
Shamelessly swiped from a forumgoer over at xkcd. I'm not going to be the one to tell you not to redistribute it at will.
Tervic2009-07-28 04:34:01
QUOTE (Estarra @ Jul 27 2009, 05:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As Charune said, if you suspect someone of gaming the envoy system and can point to some specific evidence, we'd definitely take a look at whether that person's objectivity is in question and whether they should continue as an envoy. I will say that there have been envoys in the past (this doesn't necessarily apply to current envoys) where we look at a suggestion and ask ourselves whether that person really has no concept of combat balance, or is trying to pull the wool over our eyes to get something obviously overpowered passed (or overly nerfing an opponent's ability), or is 'shooting for the moon' in the expectation that the admin probably won't give them everything in the suggestion but hope they'd get at least some partial or watered down version. If we ask ourselves this enough times about an envoy, we generally begin to question the integrity and/or objectivity of every suggestion that person gives. On the other hand, if an envoy nerfs their own skills, beefs up other organizations' skills when needed, gives us objective arguments when we ask for them on the envoy channel, is obviously working towards the overall game balance regardless of affiliation, then that envoy is gold to us and when that person speaks, we will listen to them much closer than we might other envoys. (Indeed, two such people have exhibited those traits to such a degree that they've been elevated to Special Envoy.)
Would it be possible to put in some sort of Envoy Appreciation Meter, wherein the members of a guild can give you some sort of feedback into how they think their envoy is doing? I understand that there is the strong risk that people will do stupid things with it (lolbanvote!) but the whole envoy process strikes me personally as a remarkably closed system. For example, who chooses envoys? What are the criteria? Are there really only the 20 guild envoys? Are there people outside of the organizational systems that have input into the envoy system, and must envoys necessarially be part of a guild?
Can we the players have more direct input beyond just 'e-mail support', or at least some reference page for how the whole system works, some sort of Envoy FAQ? Hopefully by increasing that level of transparency, seasoned players can give their input and aid you the administrators in ensuring that the system doesn't evolve into 'report wars'.
Xavius2009-07-28 04:44:48
QUOTE (Tervic @ Jul 27 2009, 11:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Would it be possible to put in some sort of Envoy Appreciation Meter, wherein the members of a guild can give you some sort of feedback into how they think their envoy is doing? I understand that there is the strong risk that people will do stupid things with it (lolbanvote!) but the whole envoy process strikes me personally as a remarkably closed system...
This is probably the exact opposite of desirable. I know that as BT envoy, I had a lot of people crying to me that there weren't enough BT buffs, and just barely under half of them cried harder when I told them that I wasn't going to outright buff the Blacktalon unless some mysterious change in game mechanics upgraded all non-druid archetypes and left us in the dust. They didn't care that balance required there to be absolutely no buffs to the sap kill condition. They just wanted their lives to be a little easier.
On a tangential note, this is also why I feel that no envoy is often better than a biased, weak-willed, or non-combatant envoy.
Shiri2009-07-28 04:44:54
The admin choose the envoys, and they don't want the players having much of a say in that at all.
Richter2009-07-28 04:58:23
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Jul 27 2009, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
REPORT LIST.
Or just REPORT for all the syntax.
Or just REPORT for all the syntax.
WOW, how did I miss THAT? I thought the entire envoy system was behind a veil of secrecy! I never realized it was transparent.
Celina2009-07-28 05:04:51
I've had some real issues with the envoy process for a while. Currently there are two that seem to be going back and forth and posting some real garbage.
I'm pretty disappointed with what I see going on from some of the Mags I used to run around with. We all had a real problem when Celest and Seren would link up and repeatedly nerf Mags skills into the dirt one report after the other, and I remember the outrage. Now look at you, doing the exact same thing. That's not to say some things don't need to be nerfed (communes have always had it easier than cities skills wise) but there is a very clear trend. This round of reports has three Mag guilds nerfing Glom skills, and some of the comments in them are absolute trash. Cut it out.
Druids have it easy because, and I speak from experience, people have no clue how to deal with them. I could set up a demesne and fight off a group of 5 or 6 combatants alone because most of them did everything wrong.
I'm pretty disappointed with what I see going on from some of the Mags I used to run around with. We all had a real problem when Celest and Seren would link up and repeatedly nerf Mags skills into the dirt one report after the other, and I remember the outrage. Now look at you, doing the exact same thing. That's not to say some things don't need to be nerfed (communes have always had it easier than cities skills wise) but there is a very clear trend. This round of reports has three Mag guilds nerfing Glom skills, and some of the comments in them are absolute trash. Cut it out.
Druids have it easy because, and I speak from experience, people have no clue how to deal with them. I could set up a demesne and fight off a group of 5 or 6 combatants alone because most of them did everything wrong.
Furien2009-07-28 05:07:35
ROOMWIDE IS ECTOPLASM IS A PRETTY OK SKILL GUYS
Edit @ Richter: It was made transparent sometime during your dormancy at player request, plus the hardcoded report system was easier to use than the previous wiki system was.
Edit @ Richter: It was made transparent sometime during your dormancy at player request, plus the hardcoded report system was easier to use than the previous wiki system was.
Celina2009-07-28 05:09:40
Opinionated garbage that serves no purpose like this need to be deleted. I think the Admin should keep a closer eye on envoys, honestly.
"Druids far too easy with their saplock which requires no strategy as long as they have demense effects up to do the rest, unlike mages who actively have to use some sense of skill to earn a kill. This change is well deserved and should be the start of many."
Are you kidding me with this?
"Druids far too easy with their saplock which requires no strategy as long as they have demense effects up to do the rest, unlike mages who actively have to use some sense of skill to earn a kill. This change is well deserved and should be the start of many."
Are you kidding me with this?
Tervic2009-07-28 05:14:33
QUOTE (Xavius @ Jul 27 2009, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is probably the exact opposite of desirable. I know that as BT envoy, I had a lot of people crying to me that there weren't enough BT buffs, and just barely under half of them cried harder when I told them that I wasn't going to outright buff the Blacktalon unless some mysterious change in game mechanics upgraded all non-druid archetypes and left us in the dust. They didn't care that balance required there to be absolutely no buffs to the sap kill condition. They just wanted their lives to be a little easier.
On a tangential note, this is also why I feel that no envoy is often better than a biased, weak-willed, or non-combatant envoy.
On a tangential note, this is also why I feel that no envoy is often better than a biased, weak-willed, or non-combatant envoy.
Fair enough. I'm guilty for giving people maturity-credit that they really don't deserve.
Gregori2009-07-28 07:36:59
I have been asking for the last couple months what is up with the envoy jihad.
Personally, I preferred the system where you couldn't envoy other people's skillsets. It was much better. Sure you may have had people running an arms race in that case, but you didn't have half the stupidity in "nerf them before they nerf us", and the admins could, and did, at least say "yeah, no" to stupid suggestions. Plus you had the same hope as you do now, that good envoys would nerf their own unbalanced skills.
Personally, I preferred the system where you couldn't envoy other people's skillsets. It was much better. Sure you may have had people running an arms race in that case, but you didn't have half the stupidity in "nerf them before they nerf us", and the admins could, and did, at least say "yeah, no" to stupid suggestions. Plus you had the same hope as you do now, that good envoys would nerf their own unbalanced skills.
