I'd take an clueless non com envoy over an experienced envoy that is prone to rage reports and spite nerfs.

Llandros started out as a relative non combatant, and pushed for some solid Cacophony changes just with his limited experience and listening to those around him.

Agreed, I think a noncom envoy who listens to and amalgamates the experiences of a huge host of people is far better than a combatant envoy with a hard head who thinks 'my way is best'. Rage reporting and spite-nerfing just wastes everyone's time.

After all, what constitutes a 'bad' envoy? Someone who doesn't have the game's and players' best interests at heart. Combat experience really shouldn't have a lot to do with being a good envoy, but critical thinking and listening should.

I'll end this post with a definition:
Envoy: syn. Emmisary: someone sent on a mission to represent the interests of someone else

It's a funny thing that representing your guild and the best interest of the game are sometimes at odds with each other.
I don't think that more restrictions are the way to go. I think the occasional envoy group hug would do wonders though.

Fixed.

95% of the playerbase wants to be OP. It's not purely selfish. 95% of the playerbase would be more involved in combat if it was more accessible, and IRE combat is not very accessible. The entire system is very punishing for casual players. I imagine this also leads to cyclical losses in credit sales--you know you can't be competitive without credits, but even with credits, you're not going to be very competitive without practice, but your ability to practice at a competitive level is limited without credits.

They're also really expensive. I've invested in combat alts in several guilds, but I've never really invested in any like I have Xavius. Nor would I, even when I lived primarily in Lusternia. It's certainly possible without purchases, but grinding out the gold for 1800cr is not exactly fun either, and that's not even getting you artied up. Grinding out the gold for 12k credits to be that omnitrans, artied-out demiwarrior is simply BS.

So, when the players ask for things that would make them unbalanced, they're not just saying they want easy mode. Sometimes they're just saying that they want to have more fun than they're having now. Same for a lot of people who played in imbalanced classes. They were having fun. Sometimes they won, sometimes they lost, so they felt that they were at least close to balanced. Then, when they're made really and truly balanced, all of a sudden nothing they used to do works, they're dying to everyone in sight, and they either blame the system for excessive nerfs or feel bad about themselves because they thought they were good and are getting a brutal wakeup. They're not having fun anymore.

Well, having the players' best interests at heart sometimes means protecting them from themselves But I see your point. Before I started reading reports, and waaaay back before monks and bards, I felt pretty good about myself as a warrior, feeling that I was getting into some semblance of competence, but then I found out (the hard way, as you mentioned) that it was because all kinds of formulae were out of whack. But it's true, I define 'balanced' as when overall, members of a class tend to win some and tend to lose some. It's hard to apply balance to an individual, though.

@Llandros: It's not really all that funny that representing your guild can be to the detriment of the game. Guilds have a lot of roleplay, etc associated with them, so doing things 'for the guild' may end up being harmful to the game at large.

The opinion has always been that combat is balanced around the top tier. That's good in theory, because that's where balance matters most, but most players aren't and will not achieve top tier status. I think there should be more attention paid to the experience of someone with just 1500 lessons (that's the lesson count from hitting 80 plus about 50cr that can be bought off the market or guild). Those non-trans people should have a real kill condition and the ability to be equally competitive across archetypes. They don't need to be competitive with the big dogs, but they should be able to actually see what IRE combat is all about.

@Tervic, I see it the other way around. It's not doing stuff for the guild that hurts the game, it's doing stuff for the game that hurts the guild, is where the conflict happens. Your guildies might not appreciate you bringing the nerf bat down on their heads or aguing points that they don't agree with. It's another reason envoys need to not be elected, stadning up for what is right isn't always popular.

not all ire games are hard to get into combat. i spent enough on credits on aet to tri trans and get focus. wrote a system in two weeks got lv 74 and desitrus and i were taking out groups of 5 irc mafia people, shrine wars etc several times. lusternia is more complex and requires more, i think.

FYI, I have always said that the most important quality in an envoy is having good communication skills (communication with their guild, with other envoys, with admin). Of course, envoys have to have a good grasp of combat, but they needn't be "top tier". Then again, sometimes problems arise when envoys think they are "top tier" combatants just because they are envoys--but that's another story!

I think we're arguing two sides of the same coin, actually.

Sure, as long as you agree that your side is horribly, horribly, wrong
*always being right even in the face of insurmountable evidence is another key quality of an envoy

Yeah, only comments I really have are:

*If people don't trust the envoys with making adjustments beyond their guild skills, maybe another level of envoy can be introduced where they have to submit within that restriction (still able to comment on others). After a time of observation then they could be upped and able to submit for other guild skills. (no restrictions on general/trades tho)

* @xavius: I'd agree that there should be some balancing for the lower ranks, if only the rock-paper-scissors style where given certain lesson plans (750/750/0?) members of each guild/archetype are likely to beat members fo atleast one other guild/archetype, preferably not so biased but something, couldn't hurt with retention either.

In a high-tension war situation the losing side is always going to leverage whatever they can to get an advantage, envoys included. After all, it's not their fault they're losing. If the change to Maeve had resulted in Glom getting completely smackdowned I'm sure some greasy Glom envoy would've come along demanding that geo demesne not strip trees 'cause aquas can't do it and we all have to be identical. Rearranging the envoy system or the way reports work isn't going to fix this basic fact. Best we can hope to do is make sure the admins understand what's going on and that they shouldn't listen to the insanity.

Murphy's got that lovin' feeling right here, and right back atcha!

PS First forum post in some time, and I have some advice for you all.


















Quit with the tears princess...

Holy crap it's Murphy!

Well well well!

BTW anyone who thinks a non-combatant envoy is either a: a fantastic idea or b: the BEST type of envoy needs to have themselves tested for trisomy, particulary chromosome-21 (if you don't know it, google it. You might learn something).

Envoys need to be unbiased, and they need to have a deep understanding of the combat system and all of its nuances, and a general idea of design intent. They also need to recognise when they are crazy OP (like that week where bonecrusher blackout was on a jab, yay). Finally, they should be good enough at combat to understand and even desire the need for a challenge, and to feel the rush of beating someone 1v1, fairly outplaying them when the classes are balanced. That my friends, is why balanced classes truly make for an awesome game.

That's the point of this thread though-- many envoys aren't unbiased, they don't care about design or intent, they only recognize things as OP when they are not their own skills, they don't want a challenge, and don't care for balance. It doesn't matter if they are non-com or not. Being a combatant doesn't automatically mean you care for balance and the challenge-- in fact, I'd argue that in today's game, lots of combatants are the opposite.

Are Celestines balanced?