As happens every so often, we've been getting complaints about how harsh the environment is in Lusternia when there are raids. The complaints revolve around: (1) how relentless raiders are (i.e., they don't know when to stop); (2) how there's nothing you can do if you aren't into PK; (3) how devastating to morale and unpleasant it is (I don't log in anymore); and (4) how some raids occur in "off hours". There are other complaints, some tangential/red herrings (like I don't believe the number of demigods has anything to do with anything); however, the above I believe are the root complaints.

Now, I know, the knee-jerk response is that this has happened to all organizations and everyone has "their turn" at being on the receiving end of raids. But let's move beyond that and try to objectively look at whether or not there is a true need to help ameliorate some of the issues raised above. And, if so, what would the mechanics be to help curb raiding. I know this is a sensitive issue, so let's try to keep things civil and be empathetic to the other side's feelings.

Let's hear your thoughts and suggestions!

There really are some raiders who:
1) Only raid when they know they're going to win;
2) Keep on going until it looks like the odds are starting to become even.

This can lead to very long raids that serve absolutely no purpose, because... well... there is no purpose. The point is just to kill some people without really having any challenge whatsoever.

There was a mechanic a while ago that curbed long-term raiding (the construct that gave insanity to raiders), but that's dead and gone now. It also never did anything in a semi-neutral area such as Faethorn which is a natural grouping and assault point on both Forests and can be used to avoid insanity / recover from it while keeping up the raiding.

You could always bring insanity back on Ethereal if you're an enemy of Faethorn/Moon/Night, and on Elemental/Cosmic if you're an enemy of the things there. Also bump up its accumulation a bit and/or make it so medallions and circlets don't affect it. Then you have short-term raids with no issue, or long-term raids that start to muck up the aggressors.

Nothing makes people participate in defense. They don't have to. If they play the game for social bunnies and laughs, they can. Nothing is stopping them from them doing that through raiding.

I know a large number of players are combatants and if you alienate them through rules, you lose a large chunk of playerbase. I definitely don't stay here for the RP and stories and I think you can guess who else doesn't

Artifacts, skills, these things cost credits and fighters are your biggest spenders. You don't want to alienate money do you.

Xenthos don't forumrp either.

Raiding would be fine if only Ladies/Daughters were easier to recover back

Raids from this morning have consisted of 3 people vs 4, 5, 6 defenders in enemy territory, with a meld, and shrine powers. I'm not sure how you can take that as uneven odds or "Looking like we'll win". At any rate, I don't see anything wrong with raiding. I see it as people getting too hurt.

EDIT: Forgot LiveForest too!

Some people like to fight, I know I see Narsrim get into a mood where he wants combat and he'll run through ethereal and if no one comes out to play he'll start up a free for all in the arenas.

If people don't want to be "raided" then there need to be another outlet for people who find that kind of thing fun

I think raiding is fine, you don't ever have to transverse off prime for any reason.

Where's the forumRP? There have been raiders who do this, on all sides of the game. In Glom, in Mag, in Celest... and, well, not really Seren any more because they don't have raiders, but it has happened for every org.

Also, the whole "nothing makes people participate in defense" argument is completely bogus. There are many, many things that make people participate in defense. In offense, not as much (except in certain cases where they are ordered to come be meatbodies for supermobs), but raiders would not be having any fun if "defenders were not made to participate in defense" (either through RP or mechanical reasons)... because there would be nobody for them to kill.

I had forgotten about the insanity bit. Would that help to have as a permanent mechanic?

From the mud I played before this one, I can say that raiding is most easily curbed by strong mob defences. Moving and fast-tracking smobs whose killing requires a group so big you simply won't always have the people to kill it, or clots of weaker mobs that should track fast, too, and, of course, fully repop, giving defenders a time to strike back (namely just when they repop).
Those mobs should preferrably not only track on sight, but on presence in the area, maybe after activating a discretionary, if not always.

Should create a new mechanic that offers pvp 24/7. Sort of like achaea icons, raiders can choose when to icon battle at any time, unlike how constructs were.

Only if our angels can do that too, heh.

Now now, let's not bring up the classic 'hey you don't have to defend' excuse. Not many people delude themselves to actually believe that given both RP reasons and mechanical reasons in doing so.



We could also stop understating the number of people during these raids. Also, defenders != fighters.

I'm not even seeing liveforest or shrine powers on our logs. Maybe pacification.

@Shuyin: He's talking about in Ethseren, since I raised shrine powers and had Lekius raise liveforest since it's essentially me and him for defenders right now in a commune with 8 people online total.

The difference between cities and communes in regards to raiding/defense is that cities have multiple layers you can raid being elemental and cosmic. If you wanted to lite raid back against a city, you hit its elemental plane. There is a small cost to not defending it and most don't even bother. Ethereal is all or nothing, I guess thats why it matters. But then... if all your daughters are dead, your plane is empty of all but supermobs which we aren't hitting. Why even show up? I just don't get the whole 'people who only raid when they know they will win' when I see a group of six or seven enter archway to fight the 'two raiders' on the other side. Is that defense? Or just poor gaming of 'knowing you will win' because there are alot of cases where people think numbers win and they get put down pretty quick.

I have always asked for more outlets for fighting one on one and less for group combat because I don't like the zerg mentality. I still ask. Domoth rules, 1 domoth per demigod/ascendant. If you are already holding one, you can't challenge another. Domoth challenge because a duel between the holder/challenger. That is what I want awesome 1 on 1 combat.

Forget insanity, Estarra. You see how well that helped for astral. Some of us fought beyond sociopathic. Most of us who do astral or did astral are trained to fight in insanity and even did seal events while insane. Its a fluffer safety rule, put it back and raiders will just brag that we killed 3 vs 8 while insane, in meld, in liveforest, in shrine effects. Its just another bragging right then.

I've been at both ends of raids, being raided and being on raids. Though I know when being raided I tend to get pissed off and QQ, I don't believe admin interferring in raids/conflict will make it any better. Not only that, I think Admin interference in conflict will make it worse. I know it would make me not want to play.

Been suggested, and it would be nice to offer that as an outlet.

Also, to the insanity: It would completely depend on how it's set up. If it doesn't affect Faethorn, but does effect Elemental/Cosmic/EthGlom/EthSeren, it's not going to help much. It would need to affect the whole area. And even then, as Romero says, it's not really perfect.

If there were strong replenishing mobs that discouraged raiding ala Veyrzhul's idea, that would be okay too... but then you would have to give something else for the raiders to do.

Raiding is probably a bad outlet for a player's desire for casual PvP, but the playerbase is just too small to facilitate casual PvP without some sort of motivating factor. RP makes raid defense a pretty strong motivator to get people involved, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find something equally motivating. If you think you can do it, then by all means, go for it. Just make sure that whatever you implement works before you start pushing people away from raids.

Disincentives for PvP in general is a generically bad idea. The game just isn't strong enough to stand on its PvE merits. A quick perusal of the AB files reinforces that.

I want more 1 vs 1 combat love, plz Estarra.

Also adding before it gets too crowded. We already nerfed pretty much all the side effects of conflict, now we nerf the conflict. I think eventually we will just only be able to debate each other.

OWW THOROS, YOU SHATTERED ME. QQ