Shaddus2009-08-29 18:48:55
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Aug 29 2009, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There really are some raiders who:
1) Only raid when they know they're going to win;
2) Keep on going until it looks like the odds are starting to become even.
1) Only raid when they know they're going to win;
2) Keep on going until it looks like the odds are starting to become even.
Lol, common sense is common.
Who would raid knowing that you will get trounced? Would you raid cosmic if it were only you and Talan, and half of Mag had a full meld there with 3/4 of the city awake? As for #2, odds are rarely even. If so, Demigods would only fight demigods. Do you usually target demigods in a raid/defense, Xenthos, or do you normally target the weaker people who you can get rid of easily?
Vathael2009-08-29 18:50:47
I target whoever I want dead the most even if they are Demigods, Ascendants, or whatever. This usually starts with druids, then moves to md/sd, then bards, monks, and lastly warriors cause they aren't hard to heal.
Unknown2009-08-29 18:50:52
Maybe introduce a new mechanic like domoths, except for 1 on 1 and the buffs you gain from it are for yourself only instead of races/org/guilds.
Xavius2009-08-29 18:51:15
QUOTE (Shaddus Mes'ard @ Aug 29 2009, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lol, common sense is common.
Who would raid knowing that you will get trounced? Would you raid cosmic if it were only you and Talan, and half of Mag had a full meld there with 3/4 of the city awake? As for #2, odds are rarely even. If so, Demigods would only fight demigods. Do you usually target demigods in a raid/defense, Xenthos, or do you normally target the weaker people who you can get rid of easily?
Who would raid knowing that you will get trounced? Would you raid cosmic if it were only you and Talan, and half of Mag had a full meld there with 3/4 of the city awake? As for #2, odds are rarely even. If so, Demigods would only fight demigods. Do you usually target demigods in a raid/defense, Xenthos, or do you normally target the weaker people who you can get rid of easily?
Competitive people with few self-esteem issues do not think like you do.
Shaddus2009-08-29 18:53:09
QUOTE (Xavius @ Aug 29 2009, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Competitive people with few self-esteem issues do not think like you do.
You wound me deeply.
Unknown2009-08-29 18:53:18
Going to have to agree that insanity wouldn't accomplish much besides adding another tin star to the "look at those awful odds" badge collection for raiders.
Some people will just always want to PvP. Finding incentive for making people who kill the most (and therefore the most talented at it) to want to kill each other more (as opposed to clueless pushovers) would be more likely to work. How though, eh.
Some people will just always want to PvP. Finding incentive for making people who kill the most (and therefore the most talented at it) to want to kill each other more (as opposed to clueless pushovers) would be more likely to work. How though, eh.
Xenthos2009-08-29 18:53:22
QUOTE (Shaddus Mes'ard @ Aug 29 2009, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lol, common sense is common.
Who would raid knowing that you will get trounced? Would you raid cosmic if it were only you and Talan, and half of Mag had a full meld there with 3/4 of the city awake? As for #2, odds are rarely even. If so, Demigods would only fight demigods. Do you usually target demigods in a raid/defense, Xenthos, or do you normally target the weaker people who you can get rid of easily?
Who would raid knowing that you will get trounced? Would you raid cosmic if it were only you and Talan, and half of Mag had a full meld there with 3/4 of the city awake? As for #2, odds are rarely even. If so, Demigods would only fight demigods. Do you usually target demigods in a raid/defense, Xenthos, or do you normally target the weaker people who you can get rid of easily?
You don't think that it would be fun for someone who "thrives" on combat to go into it looking for a challenge? A fight where they can, and should, lose? I know there are a very small number who do this from time to time. Further, it depends. A semi-tanky non-Demigod can be less important to shut down than a Demigod who has awful curing but a really painful attack which can wipe out my own little guys.
(Also, "common sense is common" doesn't necessarily work here. It may be something that is crystal clear to us as players, but that does not always mean it is clear to the Administration because they intentionally cut themselves off from the player-side experience and are watching from on high. Sometimes they don't always have the same perspective)
Vathael2009-08-29 18:59:16
I know a lot of people that you claim to be "clueless" on how to kill people are not all that clueless. They do not put forth the effort that others do, as in, do not use their skills to their best potential and that is where they fail. This morning for example I'd have fought with Talan vs Jozen and Veyrzhul and I'm sure I could assure a victory from it if they did not run first. At any rate, I agree with the other suggestions, more outlets for those that like to fight would likely ease the raiding that goes on.
Vathael2009-08-29 19:00:56
Also, add in the ability for 2v2 arena spars! Not having to have a free for all or wargames or whatever, just 4 people get together and go to the arena and agree on a spar get moved to the arena and it's like a mini wargames or something. Would be nice.
Razenth2009-08-29 19:05:02
I would so kill for that. Increase the time limit accordingly too.
Estarra2009-08-29 19:06:42
QUOTE (Thoros LaSaet @ Aug 29 2009, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe introduce a new mechanic like domoths, except for 1 on 1 and the buffs you gain from it are for yourself only instead of races/org/guilds.
I'm not sure how that would work rp-wise (someone want a backstory), but we could consider it. However, domoths are infrequent and I don't think that would really siphon people out of raids that often. I know someone mentioned icons in another game where you can do them "whenever you want" (though I know next to NOTHING about icons so the reference eludes me). However, it strikes me as counterproductive if people decide to just do them "off hours". Anyway, I'm open to hearing a more detailed suggestion for an idea that fits into Lusternia's RP and history. Try not to be unique and not reference other games/systems (which some of us aren't familiar with).
Vathael2009-08-29 19:09:03
Icons were like.. in relation to lusternia a construct that is dedicated to a guild that give special powers and can be destroyed by going to the icon and entering some command that drained it down and defenders could come in and try to kill the raiders in a free pk area. I don't quite remember how they were re-raised since I don't think the one for our house ever fell.
Unknown2009-08-29 19:09:16
QUOTE (Romero @ Aug 29 2009, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The difference between cities and communes in regards to raiding/defense is that cities have multiple layers you can raid being elemental and cosmic. If you wanted to lite raid back against a city, you hit its elemental plane. There is a small cost to not defending it and most don't even bother. Ethereal is all or nothing, I guess thats why it matters. But then... if all your daughters are dead, your plane is empty of all but supermobs which we aren't hitting. Why even show up? I just don't get the whole 'people who only raid when they know they will win' when I see a group of six or seven enter archway to fight the 'two raiders' on the other side. Is that defense? Or just poor gaming of 'knowing you will win' because there are alot of cases where people think numbers win and they get put down pretty quick.
I have always asked for more outlets for fighting one on one and less for group combat because I don't like the zerg mentality. I still ask. Domoth rules, 1 domoth per demigod/ascendant. If you are already holding one, you can't challenge another. Domoth challenge because a duel between the holder/challenger. That is what I want awesome 1 on 1 combat.
Forget insanity, Estarra. You see how well that helped for astral. Some of us fought beyond sociopathic. Most of us who do astral or did astral are trained to fight in insanity and even did seal events while insane. Its a fluffer safety rule, put it back and raiders will just brag that we killed 3 vs 8 while insane, in meld, in liveforest, in shrine effects. Its just another bragging right then.
I have always asked for more outlets for fighting one on one and less for group combat because I don't like the zerg mentality. I still ask. Domoth rules, 1 domoth per demigod/ascendant. If you are already holding one, you can't challenge another. Domoth challenge because a duel between the holder/challenger. That is what I want awesome 1 on 1 combat.
Forget insanity, Estarra. You see how well that helped for astral. Some of us fought beyond sociopathic. Most of us who do astral or did astral are trained to fight in insanity and even did seal events while insane. Its a fluffer safety rule, put it back and raiders will just brag that we killed 3 vs 8 while insane, in meld, in liveforest, in shrine effects. Its just another bragging right then.
QUOTE (Sojiro @ Aug 29 2009, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Now now, let's not bring up the classic 'hey you don't have to defend' excuse. Not many people delude themselves to actually believe that given both RP reasons and mechanical reasons in doing so.
Honestly, the problem here is that there are two Lusternias.
There's the mechanical one that the fighters live in, where all that matters is what has a solid, hard impact.
And there's the Psychological one that the RPers live in, where mechanics take the back seat to suspension of disbelief.
And the problem is that the mechanical one takes precedence, because the psychological one is incapable of defending it's self. When the RPers complain, they are told "Lol, lrn2play n00b", and the beating continue. Admin intervention solves nothing, because as you so directly pointed out, if they act against the fighters, they will get the axe for cutting into profits. Essentially, the argument is "You can't stop me, I paid you!". Sure, you could say that if it was really so bad, you wouldn't be allowed to do it, but the mechanics are currently more important then the psychology, so no one wants to cripple their combat capabilities by being the one to burst the bubble. Now I don't belive that there should be a hard-cap on the way raids are handled, but I do think that when you start seeing people complaining regularly on the forums, or in the game, you need to step in and give the aggressors a slap on the wrist. If you don't tell a dog NO when it does something wrong, it doesn't learn.
But, in the end, someone is going to get pissed off, and that's all that really matters.
Furien2009-08-29 19:11:34
Do we really need even more self-buffs to add even more DMP or even more damage bonuses etc?
I mean, consdering that the only people who would even try for those sort of things will likely be Demigods, since fighting in general is generally a bad idea without it.
I mean, consdering that the only people who would even try for those sort of things will likely be Demigods, since fighting in general is generally a bad idea without it.
Shiri2009-08-29 19:11:35
QUOTE (Thoros LaSaet @ Aug 29 2009, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe introduce a new mechanic like domoths, except for 1 on 1 and the buffs you gain from it are for yourself only instead of races/org/guilds.
Naturally this would just become another way to get buffs for easier harrassing on ethereal/cosmic so while that is a good place to start you're going to need more than just that.
Before we take this line of thought any further, though, think about how much people fight when they're not hurting other orgs to begin with. Or to put it another way, how much PVP both sides at any given time want, and how this differs based on incentive.
Shaddus, you're missing the point (and making a false dichotomy but that's another issue.) There is a large group of people who don't particularly enjoy getting stomped like that and, not being PVPers themselves (or massively overmatched PVPers if they are) have no real course of action. They basically have to treat it as a kind of tax for the more enjoyable parts of Lusternia - and unlike credits it's non-optional, making playing a less attractive prospect altogether as noted in Estarra's first post.
EDIT: Kialkarkea approaches the latter issue from a similar angle. Also I would say "in before complaints about "removing conflict"" but it looks like I'm way too late for that!
Unknown2009-08-29 19:11:57
YES to 2v2 arena spars. In Achaea you can do 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 2v3, 2v4, 3v4, etc. arena spars. We need that plz.
Vathael2009-08-29 19:14:11
Avenger is what causes most people to raid planes. 
Estarra2009-08-29 19:16:23
QUOTE (Thoros LaSaet @ Aug 29 2009, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
YES to 2v2 arena spars. In Achaea you can do 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 2v3, 2v4, 3v4, etc. arena spars. We need that plz.
I'm not adverse to that but we currently don't have the coding resources to implement that type of change in the near future.
Xenthos2009-08-29 19:17:56
QUOTE (Estarra @ Aug 29 2009, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not adverse to that but we currently don't have the coding resources to implement that type of change in the near future.
You wouldn't necessarily need to use a lot of coding resources if you did something using the underlying wargames functionality, right? Just hardcode it to 2 teams, up to 10 members per team, people choose which one and it doesn't take a culture minister to start it.
Estarra2009-08-29 19:19:17
QUOTE (Kialkarkea @ Aug 29 2009, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Admin intervention solves nothing, because as you so directly pointed out, if they act against the fighters, they will get the axe for cutting into profits. Essentially, the argument is "You can't stop me, I paid you!".
I think the admin has shown over and over that we aren't afraid to intervene to curb PK/conflict when we see there is a compelling need, even at the expense of pissing off PKers. Thus, we have Avenger, karma, discretionary powers, beefed up avatar-type mobs, etc., etc.
