Unknown2009-09-10 17:47:32
Pretty much all IREs suffer from this bloat, I think. IRE really hasn't quite got that concept of competitive economy nailed, so, over time, things stockpile. This problem is pretty prevalent in Aetolia as well. IMHO the reason is because the designers are reluctant to really "hurt" player-run orgs through consequences (fair enough) and so a city isn't at risk of going broke. While nice, this also means that victories and losses are softened, often to the point of being somewhat meaningless - and so the focus for the battles goes more on the direct (extended) conflict itself, because the results don't really mean anything.
I stopped playing Avalon when they switched from a very competitive economic system to one where there would always be "enough" comms for everyone to be happy and never have need of anything. Being a thief, this was doubly irritating to me, so I phased myself out of playing - without a competitive economy, so many associated things lose importance and you lose a lot of feelings of urgency.
Edit: upon reflection, I don't think it's possible for IRE to have a truly vibrant competitive economy. The credit concept introduces a foreign flow of wealth that can circumvent even the most impressive of IG machinations.
I stopped playing Avalon when they switched from a very competitive economic system to one where there would always be "enough" comms for everyone to be happy and never have need of anything. Being a thief, this was doubly irritating to me, so I phased myself out of playing - without a competitive economy, so many associated things lose importance and you lose a lot of feelings of urgency.
Edit: upon reflection, I don't think it's possible for IRE to have a truly vibrant competitive economy. The credit concept introduces a foreign flow of wealth that can circumvent even the most impressive of IG machinations.
Estarra2009-09-10 17:58:35
We really try not to let the game suffer from gold/comm bloats. The major drain that some may not be aware is allowing cities and guilds to buy/build things which is a pretty good drain. Maybe we need to up the amount we charge for comms though? Manses and aetherships are a pretty decent drain too.
It would of course be easy enough to reduce commodity production or drastically increase the comms needed for designs, especially if people think there's too much stockpiled.
It would of course be easy enough to reduce commodity production or drastically increase the comms needed for designs, especially if people think there's too much stockpiled.
Shiri2009-09-10 18:03:22
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any anecdotal evidence that the huge drop in Achaea activity was due to houses? If not, maybe it's partly just that MU*s are more and more of a dying breed with the vast increases in graphical MMOs.
Unknown2009-09-10 18:05:00
Increasing comms for things like designs - ie individual uses - won't effect orgs as a whole. One thing I always liked that I've seen in a few games is "rare" comms, ie comms that only spawn rarely, so there is a scramble to buy them/control their source. IMHO, you know the system is working when the player orgs' prices are quite a bit different than the "absolutes" of village shops - this means players are putting their own, relative, prices on comms based on usefulness and availability.
Unknown2009-09-10 18:06:15
QUOTE (Shiri @ Sep 10 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any anecdotal evidence that the huge drop in Achaea activity was due to houses?
That's why I stopped playing there.
Kiradawea2009-09-10 18:06:26
People just need to start spending commodities on building stuff. I think most people aren't even aware that the gold and comms a city stockpile can be used to build gardens or museums or what have you.
Merik2009-09-10 18:15:39
QUOTE (Shiri @ Sep 10 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any anecdotal evidence that the huge drop in Achaea activity was due to houses? If not, maybe it's partly just that MU*s are more and more of a dying breed with the vast increases in graphical MMOs.
It was a much larger combination of things. Being one of those 'bitter old fogies of Achaea' myself, I could go much deeper into the many issues that myself and quite a few others have raised as to why Achaea has seemed to be on a downward spiral, but I don't want to write out a bunch of points only to have a bunch of people go 'Dude...uh...we don't care.'
Celina2009-09-10 18:44:03
QUOTE (Shiri @ Sep 10 2009, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Out of curiosity, does anyone have any anecdotal evidence that the huge drop in Achaea activity was due to houses? If not, maybe it's partly just that MU*s are more and more of a dying breed with the vast increases in graphical MMOs.
I heard "the House system sucks" non stop in Achaea during the two years I played. I'm not kidding, I would hear it weekly without fail from someone. Then they did the whole Icon thing that I never really understood and then the "houses suck" outcry really too a jump in volume.
Shiri2009-09-10 18:56:46
QUOTE (Merik @ Sep 10 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It was a much larger combination of things. Being one of those 'bitter old fogies of Achaea' myself, I could go much deeper into the many issues that myself and quite a few others have raised as to why Achaea has seemed to be on a downward spiral, but I don't want to write out a bunch of points only to have a bunch of people go 'Dude...uh...we don't care.'
Well, I stopped playing Achaea like half a year or more before houses (I lose track of time but it was a while.) Now I know there was a lot of complaining about that, but I don't know how much of it was like "delete Glomdoring/bards/monks/aetherspace/etc.!" over here.
And whether it was really the fault of design issues that caused such a sharp drop in Achaea's activity or not is relevant to this thread because it's interesting to know what Lusternia's "cap" is and whether we can realistically expect the population to pick up if the design is changed or if we're doomed to having people just shuffle between orgs in demigod warriors' slipstreams (looking at you Sojiro!) due to the weeny market.
How are Imperian's and Aetolia's current active populations compared to a few years ago? I never played either actively so I have no reference point here.
Lendren2009-09-10 19:00:43
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Sep 10 2009, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for why this game doesn't retain new people, the gap is too wide. It's not just artifacts or demigod, but a repository of knowledge that no new player can possibly achieve in any reasonable amount of time and the requirement of a system that, barring extreme programming knowledge, even if they get it to work is far too complex for them to ever understand.
I couldn't agree more. And this is why, as Vathael put it, we mostly have the same faces all the time, sometimes in new alts but still the same people. It's very very rare for someone new to burst onto the scene as a combatant because it's so huge a mountain of stuff to get over, and there's nothing but frustration and setbacks all the way up, nothing encouraging.
If nexus guardians can be made worth using, maybe they might be a way for lowbies to get some of that thrill of combat feeling, enough to get them hooked, without them having to figure out how to handle saplock in contagion while being toaded by someone with divinefire up, all at once. But that's probably ridiculously optimistic to imagine that tiny burst of encouragement could make a dent in the hugeness of the task before them. Even so, it's the best we have right now.
Razenth2009-09-10 19:06:27
QUOTE
If nexus guardians can be made worth using, maybe they might be a way for lowbies to get some of that thrill of combat feeling, enough to get them hooked, without them having to figure out how to handle saplock in contagion while being toaded by someone with divinefire up, all at once.
Trueheal.
Celina2009-09-10 19:10:06
Vathael2009-09-10 19:35:57
QUOTE (Estarra @ Sep 10 2009, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We really try not to let the game suffer from gold/comm bloats. The major drain that some may not be aware is allowing cities and guilds to buy/build things which is a pretty good drain. Maybe we need to up the amount we charge for comms though? Manses and aetherships are a pretty decent drain too.
It would of course be easy enough to reduce commodity production or drastically increase the comms needed for designs, especially if people think there's too much stockpiled.
It would of course be easy enough to reduce commodity production or drastically increase the comms needed for designs, especially if people think there's too much stockpiled.
How did we take this topic from doing things to interest others to bring in more people to expand the Lusternia gameplay experience to let's raise the cost of everything, make everything harder to make so that novices surely won't have the things they require to move forward thus making it harder and detracting from the game in general and losing more.
Unknown2009-09-10 19:44:07
Eh, I said that increasing individual costs would be detrimental. The point, however, was raised by someone that because of the glut in "stuff" the land and conflict are not as vibrant and seemingly urgent as they were early on. My view is that this excess - be that comms, power, demigods, omnitrans people - makes things even harder for new people to have a role in the game. Most games have a learning curve, whereas in Lusty it seems to be a rather big jump between newbie and "real person."
Vathael2009-09-10 19:48:03
I hardly think power, comms, people who like to bash, and skills that people have learned are what is causing the game to have a lack of new people.. honestly.
Unknown2009-09-10 19:52:11
QUOTE (Xavius @ Sep 10 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Lusternia that sucked me in was PK-heavy and ruled by scarcity. PK was everywhere, and it was awesome. Now people cry because someone laid a finger on a friend of a friend. Avenger alone was good enough, once the bugs got ironed out. The scarcity, though, that was more awesomer. Wanna make something? We don't have comms. Go make some. Want to fight some more? We need the power for the guards. Go make some. Oh, wait, we have negative power? Everyone, go make power now.
Now we just have weird vestiges of that. Power is barely a commodity. For a couple years before VAs went in, it literally wasn't a commodity, and there was no reason for it to have a number at all. We still have power rations, though. No idea why. Commodities stockpiled too well, and now they're just there. The Avenger is still there, but that's not good enough, because people with no spine and a stockpile of excuses take everything as a great injustice that's out to kill the game. Griefing hasn't been a Lusternian reality in years. Grow a pair already, eesh.
What it leaves us with is a collection of tools through which we're supposed to be able to benefit our orgs, but they no longer need our help. They no longer require strong leadership from someone with a silver tongue and an eye for details. Boring.
The complexity thing mentioned above might be a real detractor for newbies, though. Many winters ago, Nirrti was complaining about the same thing, and all we had then were the planes, villages, commodity quests, Avenger, karma, four guilds, and aetherspace-as-obnoxious-transportation. Then we got insanity, esteem, demigods, wildnodes, constructs, domoths, VA's, aetherspace combat, new world-altering quests, the theaters, a fifth guild which required complete reprioritization of core healing mechanics, and I'm sure some more that I've forgotten about. I disagreed with her then, but it's a valid point now. The cost for entry to the "real" game is entirely ridiculous, in either time or credits, nevermind that you need both. The admin keep putting out new toys as retention tools, though. If people are leaving because they're bored, then they need to unbore us, no? Nasty cycle.
Now we just have weird vestiges of that. Power is barely a commodity. For a couple years before VAs went in, it literally wasn't a commodity, and there was no reason for it to have a number at all. We still have power rations, though. No idea why. Commodities stockpiled too well, and now they're just there. The Avenger is still there, but that's not good enough, because people with no spine and a stockpile of excuses take everything as a great injustice that's out to kill the game. Griefing hasn't been a Lusternian reality in years. Grow a pair already, eesh.
What it leaves us with is a collection of tools through which we're supposed to be able to benefit our orgs, but they no longer need our help. They no longer require strong leadership from someone with a silver tongue and an eye for details. Boring.
The complexity thing mentioned above might be a real detractor for newbies, though. Many winters ago, Nirrti was complaining about the same thing, and all we had then were the planes, villages, commodity quests, Avenger, karma, four guilds, and aetherspace-as-obnoxious-transportation. Then we got insanity, esteem, demigods, wildnodes, constructs, domoths, VA's, aetherspace combat, new world-altering quests, the theaters, a fifth guild which required complete reprioritization of core healing mechanics, and I'm sure some more that I've forgotten about. I disagreed with her then, but it's a valid point now. The cost for entry to the "real" game is entirely ridiculous, in either time or credits, nevermind that you need both. The admin keep putting out new toys as retention tools, though. If people are leaving because they're bored, then they need to unbore us, no? Nasty cycle.
This is the post I was referring to. I don't think you were understanding what I was saying.
Vathael2009-09-10 19:53:31
No, I completely understand what you are saying and I'm saying that it's :censor:. 
Unknown2009-09-10 19:56:52
I started off loving this game and playing it almost every day. Then people in Mag started playing the "I'm better than you" card and I left for a couple weeks to ease off the hostility towards me. A couple weeks passed and apparently none of that hostility went away.
Then when my robes decayed and I was down to 1000 gold it stopped being fun for me.
I might make a new alt, I might not.
Then when my robes decayed and I was down to 1000 gold it stopped being fun for me.
I might make a new alt, I might not.
Vathael2009-09-10 19:59:37
People were hostile to you because you acted stupid.
Unknown2009-09-10 20:06:28
QUOTE (Vathael @ Sep 10 2009, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
People were hostile to you because you acted stupid.
I guess it's perfectly fine to be a white-skinned viscanti with loboshigaru ears and a loboshigaru tail and trill wings (all perfectly formed by the way), or a furrikin that's just a human with fox ears and a fox tail, or a Magnagoran citizen who is married to a Glomdorian being promoted to Noblewoman for submitting a book or two.
But god forbid the loboshigaru that's helped out in nearly every offensive and defensive raid since her arrival in Magnagora and was promoted to the rank of Lady for such heroic efforts on her part within the course of a single year from being a peasant and a newbie tells an amusing joke or two. That's a BAD THING.
