You aren't going to find anything clear cut on day 1 if that is what you are waiting on Zynna. Investigators haven't had any time to actually investigate and only a select few can even come forward to prove their powers. The first challenge is really just an educated shot in the dark, and it was the last game after roughly 20 pages of bickering. The town was just extremely lucky Visaeris just happened to be on their side was all. Req's suggestion of random elect/lynch does in theory have some merit, although even then it is more of a shot in the dark than normal. We also have to nominate to move on to being able to lynch.

Currently we have me at 2 nominations and I believe (could be wrong) Req at 2 nominations. Unless we have more people come forward it's really going to come town to either me, req, or random elect barring something occuring.

I'm pretty sure it's Lorick and Shiri voting for Lorick, and me voting for myself. If someone else nominated me, I didn't notice because I would have been all over them too.

Arix did I believe. Hence more suspicion on him since you haven't actually claimed anything. I think it was mainly because he likes to oppose me in any role I play. Like.. Last game when I got flak for the flavor of my power. "You like to stare at people during the night? Isn't that...Weird?"... And now I'm some sort of monster because of the flavor of my new role. Ugh..

Yoohoo.

Early stages of the game atm so everybody's jumping at shadows. I think Req's got some good points, though also a couple that I disagree with: I don't think Lorick is as scummy as you're making out, just a little careless. I agree he's probably not the best choice for leader given what we've got so far. I also think it's a little weird you claim you'd FoS someone for nominating you as leader - with that attitude you're just engendering us to vote for ourselves, which will get us nowhere. I'm suspicious of Arix jumping down Lorick's throat due to the flavour of his role, and I'm suspicious of Celina for opting to reveal her role so readily, though I'm willing to chalk that up to greediness for the leadership position.

At the moment there's nobody I consider trustworthy enough to nominate as leader.

Jack has some good points, what sort of role would you consider ideal for the leadership position?

Although there are some roles that'd obviously be well-suited for leadership (someone able to resist nightkills would be ideal) I think we'd be better off nominating someone experienced with mafia games. It's less about their role and more about their skill, if you know what I mean. So far the most likely candidates to me would be Req, Shiri and Daganev given past performance, assuming the three are not scum.

A dead one. As I've expressed before, I feel that electing a leader is not beneficial for the town in any way. At best, we give a town member 500 gold (lynch immunity doesn't mean much if we never need to lynch you) at worst, we give mafia 500 gold and make them unlynchable.

If we're not going to sacrifice the unlynchable, then I think we should choose at random. Like I said, mafia has far more incentive to be unlynchable than town, so I say we remove Lorick, myself, and Celina, and then RNG an unlynchable from there. Then the vig kills that person if at all possible.

Jack, I would definitely FoS someone for nominating me. I never provided any information about myself. I've even expressed multiple times that I'm not seriously seeking unlynchable. And like I've also said before, the only people who should be comfortable nominating someone else for leadership are mafia, cult, and masons. Mafia and cult aren't particularly invested in the unlynchable position, unless they're actually running. Otherwise, it's just a townie that they can kill at night instead of having lynched. No big deal for the mafia, so they would be a lot more cavalier about throwing around nominations to end the day.

Leaders tend to draw a lot of fire, least in the last game there was serious discussion as to how we would off Visaeris due to his perfect ability being in synch with his perfect election. I'm wary of just electing people based on reputation when we would know little about their alignment or power base, and to be honest if we want those people to stick around in this game making them a leader is a quick way to a fast death if they don't have resistances. Reason I put my name forward was I'm not crucial to the town, useful but not required for general success.

Would you still feel having say Shiri was leader would keep him around in the game longer? And if so, might I ask why?

Eh I think I and a few other people have suggested nominating leaders based on past performance, but it got shot down. I don't think Shiri wants to be a leader in anycase and Daganev hasn't posted yet. Also if we can't find someone to test out Celina's kill immunity then as much as I hate how he wasted that question on asking about gold instead of at least trying to ask if the king knew him in life as he said, I am kind of willing to support him. He is the only one really who has put themselves out there with a power claim as well as a demonstration.

Obviously I'm not suggesting we vote leader based solely on past performance, but it should definitely factor in a lot more than their role, particularly if it's something we can't prove.

Consider, to get through the first day here we have to elect a leader before we can lynch anyone. It doesn't matter how bad an idea having a leader might be or how suspicious you might be of people nomating others. It's got to be done.

I'd be surprised if someone shows up capable of putting Celina's ability to practice. Very surprised.

I still think you guys are missing the point. Do me a favor, and when you're talking about the challenge, try writing a post using the word "unlynchable" instead of "leader." They're functionally equivalent, but the frame is much more accurate.

We're not actually electing a leader. This person doesn't actually do anything special the rest of the game. They don't get extra votes; the don't get extra information; and they don't get to make any more decisions than we allow them to make. The only thing we're choosing for the challenge is who we think will never be scum for the rest of the game. This does not help the town in any way whatsoever, especially since we had a day start.

Heh, I know Req, the mafia wants to off the unlynchable at the most proper time because the later in the game that person is around, the more of a thorn it is to the scum. Least, that was how it was when Xenthos, you, and I were the warlocks last time. My question to Jack was if we were wanting to keep the individuals in question around like he was suggesting, why making one of them leader would improve their game time.

The mafia has no extra incentive to kill the leader. Mafia kills the clears (proven townies) and the PRs (power roles). Being elected unlynchable means neither of these things. Now, if we elect Lorick today he might very well die tonight, but it he does it would be because he claimed jack of all trades. Not because we elected him leader.

A couple people said something about giving people extra protection with the unlynchable nomination, but that doesn't make sense. While the mafia will try to make town lynch itself, whomever we elect ought to be beyond reproach, which means we weren't going to lynch them anyways. Nominating someone unlynchable only hurts the town. Not the mafia.

That was because it was Verithrax and he's a very strong player. It had nothing to do with him being unlynchable. Town would never have accepted his lynch, even if we'd chosen someone else as leader.

Mafia has plenty of reason to BECOME unlynchable, but very little reason to care about anyone else being unlynchable.

*Visaeris, not Verithrax. My bad.

...What? It hurt us in the last game very much. We had someone we couldn't kill during the night with ease, limited kills, _And_ no way to get the town to do the deed. Especially later in the game when Visaeris had various suspicions cast on him we could of used to off him, but the town couldn't vote for him. Go back and reread the game. I know Xenthos and I had quite a bit of discussion over it, but it might of been while you were afk.

I actually read the entire thing about a week ago and I still disagree with your assessment. Taking away one of the town's options does nothing but hurt the town.

Sorry, got this open in another tab.

Requiem, you suggested a sort of 'blue sac'? The way I understood it, you were suggesting that we pretty much sacrifice a vanilla townie by electing them leader and then vigging them, in addition to today's lynch. If I'm reading it right we're pretty much wasting 500 gold and further tilting the number balance towards the scum.

No, that's exactly what I meant. And depending on how Bali does all of the timing stuff, we can either pass off all of the gold before the day ends, or hold off the vig shot until N2. We then have to worry about who gets the gold, but we can do that later.

Either way, I think that it's in town's best interests to eliminate the leader as quickly as possible and it's best to do that with a vanilla townie. It skews the numbers, yes, but if it stops mafia from becoming unlynchable then it's a strategy we ought to at least consider.