You want me to respond? Sure, I'll dig up this whole mess all over again just to show you how wrong you were. Be back in a bit.

Don't you pull another Page 57

That's fine. I still want you to address my rational, well reasoned points that I just put forth within the past hour. Otherwise we'll have to do this again in a couple of days.

I just want to facepalm. Please shush, Lorick. Take a step back, re-assess the situation. You're totally overreacting.

(Observation post engage)
Sweet plums of a japanese cherry peach tree. Am I glad I didn't sign up for this.
(Observation post disengage)

And within 3 minutes of this post Lorick no longer shows up on the "viewing this thread" list since last time I posted. I want this noted. He spent over an hour trying to prove the thing he says about me, and now there's no post and he isn't on the thread. Granted, the viewing thing is wonky, so maybe he's still working, but if we don't have a post from him by morning, I just wanted to point that out.

I'm getting lost in the pages of back and forth and am not sure what to think at the moment. I think getting additional information on others will be helpful. Since I don't think we're anywhere close to having the lynch numbers on Jack I'll go ahead and vote for him since I'm heading to work soon.

vote: jack

Req's Starting Logic -



Ending Logic -





Did not accomplish set goals you started with and left us in a worse position. You also failed to achieve the death of the leader with the plan. Othero next. Then the role issue. Also, I do have a life and told you I'd be back later. I'm unable to constantly be around to go in circles with you.

Othero -



Offers to get himself killed to remove the leadership job. I ask why and --

.

Fair plan, Req starting with the suggestion of offing the leader anyways to just end the debate and he is volunteering and has some reason for doing so. The above post happens, and Othero gets recruited into a different plan than the one he volunteers for. He argues against it, but eventually goes along with it, absent of personal gain as shown here when he votes for himself.


Nominate Celina for Leader
Vote: Othero

I step in and point out how this isn't what we set out to do.





Othero switches sides to my plan, the one he agreed to. Req freaks in the next post.

Jesus christ, your mixture of unjustified mafia snob and conspiracy theorist is a real headache.

I posted "nightkill" instead of "daykill," clearly my mistake. If you're going to get huffy every time someone makes a small mistake, I can gladly outline your monstrously disaster plans. God forbid I drag up the number of times you misquoted me.

Freaking relax.

Here come the tl;dr tidal wave. I'm wondering when people will start picking up the pattern.

Req's reply -



Note how he fails to even consider Othero as anything less than a way to check Celina.



Now it is suggested we are working together to derail his "perfect plan", that denying Req's plan must mean Othero doesn't want to die and is thus scum, and that somehow I'm working with him to cause this. Note, Othero is in the fellowship, I'd love to hear Req explain this logic with the new information.



Nothing in this helps the town, Rather than having low odds of getting a mafia on day 1 we reduce ourselves to exactly no odds since we killed a townie to only find out the person he wants in the office is kill resistant, the very thing he fought against at the start.

I claim I have a daykill, and this is Req's reply...



I gave him my reasons, they aren't to his liking, and suddenly because I attempted to protect Othero from Req I'm scum in his mind. What gets me is that this logic continued past the point when Othero's role was revealed. I point out my points and how he can accomplish his goals without killing a pretty sure townie at this point..



And best yet, he admits he thinks Othero is town even after all of this fighting and stating as scum...



Multiple references to Othero being scum for backing out of the lynch Req put him into, not volunteered for. Also, expresses strong belief that the killing of Othero would prove Celina when in fact it does nothing of the sort. I could keep going, but lets discuss all this so far Req. I'd love to hear how the theory of "Lorick and Othero the scum duo" is doing these days.

Ok, there seem to be two major points that you disagree with. 1) When someone offers to be lynched, you have to kill them. 2) We couldn't elect Othero leader and use him to test Celina. Other than that, I don't see what problem you have with anything I've said, and I'd actually just re-quote the posts you found yourself.

1) You realize that your entire argument against me is that Othero was town? At that point, we didn't know that. Yes, he turned out to be town. Yes, it was unlikely that he was mafia. But it was still possible. At the point where someone offers to be lynched, the town is obligated to kill them. Otherwise, you won't lynch them later. Is this the part you aren't getting. Any plan that didn't involve Othero dying put us at a HUGE risk if he turned out to be mafia. At that point, everyone already had your mentality of "Also, he was willing to go ahead with option 2, which involved death and no position. These at least suggest he is being somewhat honest in his claim." So people were assuming he was town before he was actually dead. Exactly like you did. Before he died, this was extremely harmful for the town.

2) My original plan hinged on us having a vigilante. While we could probably assume -- and I mentioned this at the time, as well -- that we had a vig, we didn't know that for sure. And this was at least a semi-likely possibility that we didn't have one. If we didn't have a vig, then the plan wouldn't work. Which means it wasn't 100% guaranteed to produce the results we wanted. At the time, no one came forward indicating that we should definitely do it anyway. Dag didn't soft-claim, nor did he push for the original plan other than to jump on me, which was primarily because of bad blood between us.

We did have Othero, though. He could kill someone for us, guaranteed. The problem was that he couldn't kill himself. Othero was the one who volunteered to be sacrificed. He had to die (if you disagree with point 1, explain why and we can talk about that). No one else was volunteering to be sacrificed. This is the main issue with my original plan. If we had someone else willing to die to remove the leadership position, I would have been all over that option, but we didn't.

Which left us with a volunteer who needed to be sacrificed, and a challenge needing to be completed. Since we didn't have a second person willing to be part of the "remove leader from the game" plan, we had to elect someone else. Since we were electing a leader who wasn't going to die right away, we needed someone we could verify, even in the slightest. That meant it was between Lorick and Celina. Lorick had already whiffed his chance to prove himself (and note that I was fine with electing him until after he botched the dead guy performance). I personally was very much against nominating Lorick after that, and apparently everyone else agreed with me enough that you didn't get elected. By default, that left Celina.

As a side note, I'd like to point out that I offered to do it towards the end of D1. I nominated myself and offered to hammer on Othero to remove leadership entirely from the game entirely, but you shot me down because you didn't want me in leadership. You are just as responsible as I am for putting Celina in office.

Also, you have to realize that I didn't vote for Othero or Celina all by myself. There were plenty of other people who agreed with me enough, that they carried it out. You keep saying you don't think I'm scum, and then you spend pages of text trying to prove that I'm scummy. If you actually don't think I'm mafia, but you still think the plan didn't help town at all (a statement I really don't understand how you can make) then look at the other people who followed it. If you think I'm mafia, then just say so. I've already offered myself to be lynched. I've explained numerous times why I think you we have to kill people who volunteered. You, and a couple other people, expressed disinterest in killing me. If you want to lynch me, I'll go along willingly. I'm only arguing with you because I'm not mafia. Not because I don't want to get lynched.

No, I'm just responding to you. You kept going to the point where you force me to take interest. I don't believe, at least currently, that you are scum but I can not trust what you say right now due to the all the issues that arose from day 1 and the fact you continue to pursue whatever logic you can find to incriminate anyone I attempt to help or stand up for. This is getting in the way of the fellowship's success and caused me to consider you as I would a survivor, a lynch in place of better information. I also suggested how you could change that at the start of this day but so far you've failed to even question anyone else _except_ me, leading me to believe you will continue to do so pretty much no matter what I personally do.

Othero offered to be lynched, period. I didn't force him into a plan. I said "do we have anyone who would be willing to die" and Othero said "Yes, me." He was a hunter, for Pete's sake. The role is designed to shoot people. On purpose. Typically, the way it works is that when you lynch the hunter, they get to pick anyone at all to shoot, not auto-killing the person who hammered, but it's functionally the same thing. He had to be lynched, and the way I proposed doing it was the most productive method short of finding someone else to be elected leader and then killed (again, I offered to do this, and you shut me down).

You also keep saying it doesn't prove anything about Celina. In fact, it proves that she's kill resistant. That's the only thing I've ever said it proved. I've said over and over that if we start from the assumption that we have to lynch Othero, and that we can't do that if he's leader (thus meaning we can't elect him leader), then the people whose powers we could verify are Lorick and Celina. I was against voting Lorick into office because of the way he dodged the question we asked him to present to the king, which left Celina. She was the only person left whose claim we could verify.

So Celina killing Othero did exactly what I said it would do. Supposedly you have a day kill. If you're so convinced she's still mafia, feel free to shoot her. I have no attachment to keeping Celina in office. It was the best solution I could come up with to deal with the heinous leadership challenge. And actually, you probably should shoot her tomorrow. If you're the last role we have that can eliminate her, it's best that you do it before you die. (I say this from your claim that you're town-sided. I'm not actually making that assumption, but that's what a town-sided role would do).

I do disagree with point 1. No scum is going to offer to die so bluntly, it does not help their case in the slightest and if you believe so I'd like to hear how so. Othero put forth the offer to act as a sacrifice _as the leader_ to remove the role. _You_ jumped on this and forced him into your plan without his consent and he went along with it anyways, going to die for a cause he doesn't believe in because you said it would help the town and without the leadership position. Can you honestly say that you didn't feel he was town then? And if so, why not just elect him? You knew next to nothing about Celina and still don't. The fact you attempted to essentially bully him into the plan by claiming he was scum when he backed out didn't help your case of not harming the town either, especially when you keep trying to hammer home this lie that he accepted _your_ plan rather than his and mine.

Plus the fact that you and Dag clashed pretty hard over this issue and he winds up as the first kill is odd. It's just the timing, the two facts alone don't really mean anything. Either someone is trying to frame you and you keep making their case for them or Dag was killed for saying _something_ right. I think with the way he was after you it would be safe to assume you were his first target if he had one. Anyone else have a different view on that?

I'm not distracting the fellowship. Again, the last 2 or 3 pages all started because I threw in a random sentence as an afterthought to a huge wall of text that had nothing to do with you being a serial killer.

Also, how on earth am I acting like a survivor? If I win simply for surviving, then I don't care who dies. My best strategy is to sit back and let the town do whatever it wants. If we get down to 9 people without killing any mafia, then I claim and offer to joint win with the mafia. We use 5 votes against 4 to kill a town, and I win. That's how you play survivor. You don't offer to be lynched. You don't draw attention to yourself. And you don't try to lynch specific people.

If you want to push for me being third party, I'd go for lyncher. You'll have a better time convincing people about that one.




*I present to you, Ad Hominem Tu Quoque.



Just because I had a meltdown on D1 doesn't mean I'm not right.

Ugh, I didn't say you were a survivor, I said I considered your actions and role about the same way as I would a survivor at this point. A lynch barring new information because I have reasons to distrust you at this point, I lack information about pretty much everyone else pro or con.

Speaking of which, something has been bothering me over the last few days. Req, what do you think of Shiri so far? Basically, he voted for your plan even though he opposed it vocally, and now he says he wants you daykilled but isn't up to lynching. It sounds like he is really trying to walk the middle ground.