Xenthos2009-10-03 21:12:10
QUOTE (Lehki @ Oct 3 2009, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thought I read something about that being changed somewhere. Guess it was a 'should be changed' and not 'was changed'. Go go failed reading comprehension. xP
It was supposedly changed, AFAIK.
Lehki2009-10-03 21:13:20
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Oct 3 2009, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It was supposedly changed, AFAIK.
Guess I'll just go fling some black out at somebody and find out.
Gregori2009-10-03 21:16:26
QUOTE (Celina @ Oct 3 2009, 03:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Blackout stacks.
That log is precisely why it shouldn't.
That log is precisely why it shouldn't.
If blackout is still stacking that is a bug. I envoyed that months ago to have blackout no longer reset the timer (and it was approved and changed). It should not be stacking, period.
It is however possible to just whore blackout flicks over and over and over and over and end up with putting the person back into blackout as soon as they come out of it, cause there is only 1 active cure for it and that is a 40 second balance timer. Which means once you sip it, expect to see nothing for the next 40 seconds.
Lehki2009-10-03 21:22:04
Just tried it a few times on Ilaveuse and it's definately not stacking. And only lasting about 8 seconds still. Really want to know where Xiel is pulling out 13.5 seconds. Even if he was just whoring it, Ixion would still get lines for blackout ending and then Viynain flicking again.
Desitrus2009-10-03 21:37:11
QUOTE (Lehki @ Oct 3 2009, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just tried it a few times on Ilaveuse and it's definately not stacking. And only lasting about 8 seconds still. Really want to know where Xiel is pulling out 13.5 seconds. Even if he was just whoring it, Ixion would still get lines for blackout ending and then Viynain flicking again.
Unless it was chopped, gigglesticks.
Ixion2009-10-03 23:30:57
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Oct 3 2009, 05:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Unless it was chopped, gigglesticks.
Chopped? That log is cut and pasted with my timestamps. I only took out my echoes which fire to let me know of affs in blackout.
Xavius2009-10-03 23:33:41
Llandros2009-10-04 20:26:30
QUOTE (Celina @ Oct 3 2009, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is why we have an envoy problem.
You guys bitch and moan about our problems (and I agree, certain aspects of Night are very OP 1v1. In groups, no), but when it comes to Mag's very real problems...oh no, that's different, it's not so bad, it takes coordination-you get the idea.
Here's a hint: Waiting for a person to writhe off before mashing your crucify macro is not "coordination." Chaining so said person dies because they can't move nor cure nor at the very least sip health does not take "coordination."
Yeah, that much blackout is retarded. Double mana loss songs can be pretty brutal as well. Choke is pretty obscene in 1v1 combat. But so is ectoplasm spam, or pit chasms/judge, or for that matter, crucify+chasms, or coordinated telepathy insta-death squads, etc etc etc.
You want fixes and "balance?" Then get a reality check and take a look at your own skills too.
You guys bitch and moan about our problems (and I agree, certain aspects of Night are very OP 1v1. In groups, no), but when it comes to Mag's very real problems...oh no, that's different, it's not so bad, it takes coordination-you get the idea.
Here's a hint: Waiting for a person to writhe off before mashing your crucify macro is not "coordination." Chaining so said person dies because they can't move nor cure nor at the very least sip health does not take "coordination."
Yeah, that much blackout is retarded. Double mana loss songs can be pretty brutal as well. Choke is pretty obscene in 1v1 combat. But so is ectoplasm spam, or pit chasms/judge, or for that matter, crucify+chasms, or coordinated telepathy insta-death squads, etc etc etc.
You want fixes and "balance?" Then get a reality check and take a look at your own skills too.
Yay!, that's the Celina i love.
I don't fight agains many Mags, so of course my viewpoint is skewed. I try to take an open stance when others bring mag skills up for review. I don't think crucify is the worst offender but that's my opinion that may or may not be correct.
I still think the Harbinger change is unneeded but Desi made it clear that civil discourse wasn't going to be an option in his report, so i left it at that.
Desitrus2009-10-04 20:44:24
QUOTE (Llandros @ Oct 4 2009, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yay!, that's the Celina i love.
I don't fight agains many Mags, so of course my viewpoint is skewed. I try to take an open stance when others bring mag skills up for review. I don't think crucify is the worst offender but that's my opinion that may or may not be correct.
I still think the Harbinger change is unneeded but Desi made it clear that civil discourse wasn't going to be an option in his report, so i left it at that.
I don't fight agains many Mags, so of course my viewpoint is skewed. I try to take an open stance when others bring mag skills up for review. I don't think crucify is the worst offender but that's my opinion that may or may not be correct.
I still think the Harbinger change is unneeded but Desi made it clear that civil discourse wasn't going to be an option in his report, so i left it at that.
You mean you still have no logic or math to back up "I don't wanna." Which, of course, is why I pointed it out. So you in turn throw up your hands and scream "HOSTILE HOW COULD I BE EXPECTED TO ANSWER HOSTILE HOSTILE HOSTILE."
Xavius2009-10-04 21:22:18
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Oct 4 2009, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You mean you still have no logic or math to back up "I don't wanna." Which, of course, is why I pointed it out. So you in turn throw up your hands and scream "HOSTILE HOW COULD I BE EXPECTED TO ANSWER HOSTILE HOSTILE HOSTILE."
God, Desi, could you be a little more hostile towards Llandros right there?
(
)Llandros2009-10-05 04:00:16
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Oct 4 2009, 04:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You mean you still have no logic or math to back up "I don't wanna." Which, of course, is why I pointed it out. So you in turn throw up your hands and scream "HOSTILE HOW COULD I BE EXPECTED TO ANSWER HOSTILE HOSTILE HOSTILE."
I said that I wasn't sure it was a good idea and you questioned my motivation. I respond to some of your concerns and you insult me. Having raised the concens i had, i chose not continue such a conversation. What was next, you questioning my humanity for saying the sky is blue. Thanks, but no thanks.
Geb2009-10-05 04:07:51
QUOTE (Ixion @ Oct 3 2009, 07:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That sounds right, except not.
Doubletaps are the only viable way ALs have of building wounds, and it only hurts those who have poor curing or non-trans skills. You're welcome to have an AL 1v1 me while I afk on them and see how much wounds they get.
Instead of fixing the myriad of other OP skills that are whored constantly, you chose to do report 272. Nice job.
Doubletaps are the only viable way ALs have of building wounds, and it only hurts those who have poor curing or non-trans skills. You're welcome to have an AL 1v1 me while I afk on them and see how much wounds they get.
Instead of fixing the myriad of other OP skills that are whored constantly, you chose to do report 272. Nice job.
Are you serious? Double tap in stun makes AL one of the easiest specialties to be. Oh and I know, I became one for awhile and found AL to require the least amount of effort to defeat people with, because of the double tap in stun ability.
Romero2009-10-05 12:40:43
Report #137 Skillset: Healing Skill: Aurawarp
Guild: Nihilists Status: Rejected Feb 2009
Problem: Currently aurawarp inflicts a plague upon the target that prohibits the use of herbal cures, almost competely shutting down the person's curing abilities. The cost for this ability is a low 2p and is entirely uncurable anorexia for herbs without leaving the room of the healer. With simple hindering in conjunction with this ability, a person can be stopped entirely from leaving the room, putting up an offense, and can even be chased along to prevent this affliction and the subsequent stacked afflictions that they receive from ever curing as well. With such a low cost, the healer can afflict 5-6 people during large scale battles where leaving a room is not possible, hindering the effective curing of possibly an entire group. Another big problem with this ability that will be addressed by it, that in conjunction with succumb, it makes it uncurable.
Solution #1: Allow the plague to be cured despite the healer's presence while the plague is in remission. This still allows the healer to stack on other afflictions to prohibit the curing of the plague.
Solution #2: Boost the cost of the aurawarp to 4 or 5 power and keep the room requirement.
This I think was before new choke which makes curing, escaping, and somehow tricking the SD into not following you during your 4-5 second tumble even more ridiculous.
For those who don't understand, aurawarp is a reishi cure, so is succumb. When you attempt to cure succumb, it will always hit aurawarp instead and fail to cure because you must cure aurawarp first in order to cure succumb. You don't need choke for this, this is a legit way to kill out of choke where the target will suffer 1-2k passive mana drain and are unable to cure it. Of course when asked by the admins repeatedly 8 months ago for this to be nerfed, they refused. There are mutliple ways which I have detailed in the report to use blind or anorexia to utterly lock a person up, the requirement once again is for the inflicted to leave the room but we see how easy it is to do that when you have 4-5 seconds to follow. 2p is a very low cost for such a great skill and I think we all have seen the difficulty of 'leaving the room' with the choked tumblespam.
Guild: Nihilists Status: Rejected Feb 2009
Problem: Currently aurawarp inflicts a plague upon the target that prohibits the use of herbal cures, almost competely shutting down the person's curing abilities. The cost for this ability is a low 2p and is entirely uncurable anorexia for herbs without leaving the room of the healer. With simple hindering in conjunction with this ability, a person can be stopped entirely from leaving the room, putting up an offense, and can even be chased along to prevent this affliction and the subsequent stacked afflictions that they receive from ever curing as well. With such a low cost, the healer can afflict 5-6 people during large scale battles where leaving a room is not possible, hindering the effective curing of possibly an entire group. Another big problem with this ability that will be addressed by it, that in conjunction with succumb, it makes it uncurable.
Solution #1: Allow the plague to be cured despite the healer's presence while the plague is in remission. This still allows the healer to stack on other afflictions to prohibit the curing of the plague.
Solution #2: Boost the cost of the aurawarp to 4 or 5 power and keep the room requirement.
This I think was before new choke which makes curing, escaping, and somehow tricking the SD into not following you during your 4-5 second tumble even more ridiculous.
For those who don't understand, aurawarp is a reishi cure, so is succumb. When you attempt to cure succumb, it will always hit aurawarp instead and fail to cure because you must cure aurawarp first in order to cure succumb. You don't need choke for this, this is a legit way to kill out of choke where the target will suffer 1-2k passive mana drain and are unable to cure it. Of course when asked by the admins repeatedly 8 months ago for this to be nerfed, they refused. There are mutliple ways which I have detailed in the report to use blind or anorexia to utterly lock a person up, the requirement once again is for the inflicted to leave the room but we see how easy it is to do that when you have 4-5 seconds to follow. 2p is a very low cost for such a great skill and I think we all have seen the difficulty of 'leaving the room' with the choked tumblespam.
Azula2009-10-05 13:58:30
@romero if i may politely suggest on behalf of the remaining 2/3 guilds who use healing but dont use succumb, perhaps a change to succumb itself to consume 2-3 power if target is under aurawarp. please do not punish the remaining healers of the basin. Thanks
Unknown2009-10-05 14:19:58
Aurawarp could still use an increase in cost, with or without Succumb. Putting the two abilities together is just a very bad idea, period.
This topic has strayed from the original post, though the train of thought isn't hard to follow here. Plenty of things are broken, and not even the Envoy process can fix them all.
This topic has strayed from the original post, though the train of thought isn't hard to follow here. Plenty of things are broken, and not even the Envoy process can fix them all.
Desitrus2009-10-05 14:34:31
QUOTE (Llandros @ Oct 4 2009, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I said that I wasn't sure it was a good idea and you questioned my motivation. I respond to some of your concerns and you insult me. Having raised the concens i had, i chose not continue such a conversation. What was next, you questioning my humanity for saying the sky is blue. Thanks, but no thanks.
You said you weren't sure. I asked for examples. You listed a pile of nothing supplied by someone else that wasn't even coherently relevant. You don't bother to do any research and it's not even your opinion posted. That is why you couldn't defend it. The reason your motives were questioned off the bat is because your "reasoning" had no basis in what every other bard spec can do in regards to what songs are up at any given time. To put it bluntly, you knee-jerk responded a no to a Glomdoring report based on advice from a certian nameless someone. Then you respond with the usual "OH GOD ENVOY WAR SOMEONE HELP ME" in the hopes that they will read only that and not the actual report.
QUOTE
Report #247 Skillset: Shadowbeat Skill: Shadowpulse
Guild: Harbingers Status: Submitted Sept 2009
Problem: Shadowbeat is fairly middle-stanza-heavy, with a skill (shadowpulse) that builds off a skill on the same tier (bloodycaps). Pretty much limits the mid stanza options a great amount if you want to effectively use them.
Solution #1: Move shadowpulse to high stanza (7-9)
Solution #2: Swap Widowsmercy and Shadowpulse, moving mercy to mid (5-7) and pulse to high (7-9)
Solution #3: Provide a solution here.
Player Comments:
---:
I'm not sure about this. It seems to me the current structure was intentional to limit the set up you can have at any one time. More of a do you want to hinder enemies, buff allies or increase damage and less of getting the best parts of everything at once. Also, with the ease of changing the powers imbued in a song it shouldn't be much of an issue to change things on they fly as needed.
---:
I'm not quite sure what your motives are, but each of the other specs can do just that. Not to mention Shadowpulse doesn't paralyze from one tick of songs, so it takes at least two with no clotting or chevril to "hinder." Even in your own spec, there is an easy line of buff/hurt/hinder, same for Wilderrane and even the agreed-upon hurting Starhymn. Shadowbeat was chosen as the only spec to receive this qualification? Really? The songs it works with are either on demand (crowcaw) or in the same stanza. Simple problem, simple fix.
---:
I don't know why you think shadowbeat is being singled out. In necroscream despairweb/torturesong - low stanza, sickeningplague/carillonknell - mid stanza,
---:
(continued from above) blackdeath/wrathfulcanticle - high stanza. That you have two complementary songs in a single stanza does not seem unbalanced from my point of view
---:
Are you selecting two random skills each time or something? It's not that they are complimentary, one literally feeds off the other or external sources of bleeding. Your first example? Neither works for the other, they are just both off entangles. Second I'll give you, but it also comes from a stanza where nothing else makes that big of a difference. Running sick/knell/engine over sob/demon should be a nobrainer. Third? Death and canticle serve different purposes. One builds off sick by making those afflictions hard to cure and possibly giving them back, the other adds new afflictions based on the plague afflictions present. All of which can be added by external plague sources. I'm still curious as to what motivates your objections aside from personal reasons. You have yet to state an actual balance reason. List examples of how having caps/pulse/heart up at the same time produces some sort of ultimate overpowered combo, please. I'm waiting for a balance concern rather than some strange pondering of stanza assignment based on cursory glances at a skillset. Show some math, anything to support other than "You think it looks like one should buff or hurt not both."
---:
I'm not going to get sucked into the next chapter of envoy wars especially since you went aggro right out the gate. I respectfully disagree with the necessity of taking shadowpulse and bloodycaps from the same stanza and I'm leaving it at that.
---:
I'm only "aggro" because you refuse to support your claim with any sort of substantial evidence like "math" or "logic", just "opinion."
---:
Sounds reasonable to me, not a big deal in the long run
---:
Agree with Sidd. It's not really a big deal, so it sounds fine
Guild: Harbingers Status: Submitted Sept 2009
Problem: Shadowbeat is fairly middle-stanza-heavy, with a skill (shadowpulse) that builds off a skill on the same tier (bloodycaps). Pretty much limits the mid stanza options a great amount if you want to effectively use them.
Solution #1: Move shadowpulse to high stanza (7-9)
Solution #2: Swap Widowsmercy and Shadowpulse, moving mercy to mid (5-7) and pulse to high (7-9)
Solution #3: Provide a solution here.
Player Comments:
---:
I'm not sure about this. It seems to me the current structure was intentional to limit the set up you can have at any one time. More of a do you want to hinder enemies, buff allies or increase damage and less of getting the best parts of everything at once. Also, with the ease of changing the powers imbued in a song it shouldn't be much of an issue to change things on they fly as needed.
---:
I'm not quite sure what your motives are, but each of the other specs can do just that. Not to mention Shadowpulse doesn't paralyze from one tick of songs, so it takes at least two with no clotting or chevril to "hinder." Even in your own spec, there is an easy line of buff/hurt/hinder, same for Wilderrane and even the agreed-upon hurting Starhymn. Shadowbeat was chosen as the only spec to receive this qualification? Really? The songs it works with are either on demand (crowcaw) or in the same stanza. Simple problem, simple fix.
---:
I don't know why you think shadowbeat is being singled out. In necroscream despairweb/torturesong - low stanza, sickeningplague/carillonknell - mid stanza,
---:
(continued from above) blackdeath/wrathfulcanticle - high stanza. That you have two complementary songs in a single stanza does not seem unbalanced from my point of view
---:
Are you selecting two random skills each time or something? It's not that they are complimentary, one literally feeds off the other or external sources of bleeding. Your first example? Neither works for the other, they are just both off entangles. Second I'll give you, but it also comes from a stanza where nothing else makes that big of a difference. Running sick/knell/engine over sob/demon should be a nobrainer. Third? Death and canticle serve different purposes. One builds off sick by making those afflictions hard to cure and possibly giving them back, the other adds new afflictions based on the plague afflictions present. All of which can be added by external plague sources. I'm still curious as to what motivates your objections aside from personal reasons. You have yet to state an actual balance reason. List examples of how having caps/pulse/heart up at the same time produces some sort of ultimate overpowered combo, please. I'm waiting for a balance concern rather than some strange pondering of stanza assignment based on cursory glances at a skillset. Show some math, anything to support other than "You think it looks like one should buff or hurt not both."
---:
I'm not going to get sucked into the next chapter of envoy wars especially since you went aggro right out the gate. I respectfully disagree with the necessity of taking shadowpulse and bloodycaps from the same stanza and I'm leaving it at that.
---:
I'm only "aggro" because you refuse to support your claim with any sort of substantial evidence like "math" or "logic", just "opinion."
---:
Sounds reasonable to me, not a big deal in the long run
---:
Agree with Sidd. It's not really a big deal, so it sounds fine
I understand if *that special someone* wasn't available to help you finish responding to me, but you should really try to do things on your own at some point.
Llandros2009-10-05 15:17:00
All the bard guilds have two songs in common for the middle stanza a damage boost and a demon/angel/fae speed up song.
Necroscream and Shadowbeat also have two complementary stanzas as well as a hindering song. The harbinger hindering song is pretty sweet so you really don't have an opportunity to use the damage or fae songs. This was the basis for your report as i understood it. I don't think the two complementary songs should be broken up, but I sent you a msg that swapping out your hindering song would be a better way to go. There was no response.
Also, Narsrim takes interest in very few envoy reports, if you must know, and we don't always agree. I speak to many people. mostly outside my guild to gather information and form opinons. I do this because I lack the experience and skills that the people I speak to have.
Last month's envoy report that I did came from Charune and the one before that was Narsrim's suggestion. The current one is my idea. The few months before that, while i waned to assess the several buffs that Necroscream got were mostly Ceren's suggestions.
Necroscream and Shadowbeat also have two complementary stanzas as well as a hindering song. The harbinger hindering song is pretty sweet so you really don't have an opportunity to use the damage or fae songs. This was the basis for your report as i understood it. I don't think the two complementary songs should be broken up, but I sent you a msg that swapping out your hindering song would be a better way to go. There was no response.
Also, Narsrim takes interest in very few envoy reports, if you must know, and we don't always agree. I speak to many people. mostly outside my guild to gather information and form opinons. I do this because I lack the experience and skills that the people I speak to have.
Last month's envoy report that I did came from Charune and the one before that was Narsrim's suggestion. The current one is my idea. The few months before that, while i waned to assess the several buffs that Necroscream got were mostly Ceren's suggestions.
Vathael2009-10-05 15:21:44
on the subject of the DW blackout, lehki has hit me with it several times in the past and the time on it has varied from 10s to 12s. there are no 2 ways about it, its just long period.
Unknown2009-10-05 15:33:52
The thing is, there's already so much "you lose and there's not much you can do about it, if anything" in the game.
That blackout log.
Crucify chains.
Choke.
Other crap I'm forgetting because I'm writing this real fast before I get coffee.
We either need to fix all of them, or fix none of them (and create more of them so all orgs have roughly equal acess to super group
kills a-go-go).
And when you bring them up to the people using them, they either zealously defend it, or say "lol yeah, it's crap, I love it". I'm not sure which is more annoying, though the latter one, if said by an envoy is pretty damning.
Sometimes being outside the box just means your a retard without a box to play with.
That blackout log.
Crucify chains.
Choke.
Other crap I'm forgetting because I'm writing this real fast before I get coffee.
We either need to fix all of them, or fix none of them (and create more of them so all orgs have roughly equal acess to super group
kills a-go-go).And when you bring them up to the people using them, they either zealously defend it, or say "lol yeah, it's crap, I love it". I'm not sure which is more annoying, though the latter one, if said by an envoy is pretty damning.
Sometimes being outside the box just means your a retard without a box to play with.
Desitrus2009-10-05 16:47:59
QUOTE (Llandros @ Oct 5 2009, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All the bard guilds have two songs in common for the middle stanza a damage boost and a demon/angel/fae speed up song.
Necroscream and Shadowbeat also have two complementary stanzas as well as a hindering song. The harbinger hindering song is pretty sweet so you really don't have an opportunity to use the damage or fae songs. This was the basis for your report as i understood it. I don't think the two complementary songs should be broken up, but I sent you a msg that swapping out your hindering song would be a better way to go. There was no response.
Also, Narsrim takes interest in very few envoy reports, if you must know, and we don't always agree. I speak to many people. mostly outside my guild to gather information and form opinons. I do this because I lack the experience and skills that the people I speak to have.
Last month's envoy report that I did came from Charune and the one before that was Narsrim's suggestion. The current one is my idea. The few months before that, while i waned to assess the several buffs that Necroscream got were mostly Ceren's suggestions.
Necroscream and Shadowbeat also have two complementary stanzas as well as a hindering song. The harbinger hindering song is pretty sweet so you really don't have an opportunity to use the damage or fae songs. This was the basis for your report as i understood it. I don't think the two complementary songs should be broken up, but I sent you a msg that swapping out your hindering song would be a better way to go. There was no response.
Also, Narsrim takes interest in very few envoy reports, if you must know, and we don't always agree. I speak to many people. mostly outside my guild to gather information and form opinons. I do this because I lack the experience and skills that the people I speak to have.
Last month's envoy report that I did came from Charune and the one before that was Narsrim's suggestion. The current one is my idea. The few months before that, while i waned to assess the several buffs that Necroscream got were mostly Ceren's suggestions.
Your inability to read and comprehend is bordering on amazing. I gave you pointed examples of how your middle stanza has no such trade-off for the synergistic song, nor the others, and here you are ignoring it. Once again you don't "think the two complimentary songs should be broken up" but you still have nothing to back it up. No math, no situational examples, and no comparisons to other specs in which the same trade-off is made. You sent me a message that says exactly the same thing as you said here, but you did it in private as to not be slapped around for your normal brand of garbage. You had to message me because you had already played the martyr card in public, nice try.
So many of your reports and responses are directly from the person I didn't name (oddly you knew exactly who without me giving hints) and it is glaringly obvious to anyone who has ever spoken to both of you. As for your reports, saying it's "From Charune" doesn't exactly convey the context of the situation when he responded to you saying "it's a bug" by saying "envoy it." With quality shots like "---:
How would this affect them as far as building wounds? Many that i spoke to were concerned about this" and no thought before you regurgitate that kind of thing, surely you can understand why no one has any faith in you. How indeed could anyone ever build wounds without a stun and a two hander??? You mean, there's a spec like that already ????? TRES IMPOSSIBLE!
