You brighten my days with joy and giggles.

Firstly I don't want it nerf'd I want it removed, if that means giving their other skills a buff or a re assessment of their skills I would be glad to see that happen. I don't think choke and shield smite till 4 people die is a fair combat tactic do you believe it is?

Personal crusades =/= streamlining combat.

You mean like if the forest envoys claimed nerfing hunger attrition was really just a noble streamlining effort?
Wanting to nerf things that annoy you is pretty understandable. Accepting that annoyances don't always constitute balance issues is where most people get tripped up.

Exactly. Too bad it's envoy warrrrrrrrrr

"lolwat"

You realize that sleep and hunger are two of the most hated attrition offenses in ALL OF IRE, not some forestal agenda, right?

Choke is a different animal, however.

Choke seriously stacks the deck against many archetypes, every time. Calling it just an inconvienence is pretty flatly absurd. It just just be replaced with aeon, or made curable in some way. It hardly carries any real double edge, at least in the hands of Shadowdancers.

We go to all this trouble to revamp combat to make it, what, more available to more people? Easier to get into? Great.

Except we leave the biggest single combat brick wall sitting fat, incurable, and happy.

I'd say the single biggest combat brick wall is the sheer number of lines, personally.

^

And lesson expenditure.

Not very fond of multiple balances for different things too, while we're at it.

Definitely lessons. But good luck getting that changed.

As someone privately messaged me regarding choke, I don't mind having a discussion on whether it is overly challenging and, if so, whether any tweaks are needed for it (or if it should be replaced by something else). While I'm not interested in dumbing down combat, I do see the point that some people feel that dealing with choke is difficult to the point of imbalancing.

Please let's try to be constructive and respectful in our discussions and not have the conversation devolve into bashing envoys or the envoy process.

Man, if choke could have just been made into aeon to begin with, then we wouldn't have needed to redesign/alter it twice -and- switch succumb/lash, heh.

If choke goes away I want succumb back...

Actually if choke becomes aeon, both wiccans should either get succumb or lash, no need for one to have a different mana move anymore. I'm leaning more towards succumb for both.

Edit: While we're at it, I imagine Akui was only slightly exaggerating when she stated that the biggest block to combat is choke.

I see it as the biggest wall in the way, I can learn to heal I can bash krokani to get credits I can do all that but no matter how much I try learn etc. A telepath will never be able to fight in choke.

Are you kidding? Just get them in your effects and if they release shadows just dominate them to choke on your terms and kill them.

... anyone can bash krokani. All that one takes is a health curing thing which is one of the most simple things to set up for a system (first thing I do every game). Well, and about 1k health.

Choke, aeon, sap all require that you do curing in a different way. That is their purpose-- you can't just spam things through. If you're upset with one making you have to code your system to account for it, then you really should be upset with all of them. At least, that was your claim earlier for disliking it (the one I responded to).

I still believe that it's the huge number of lines that are the biggest hurdle at the moment.

And Chade gave you a good solution too, heh.

Firstly the Krokani thing was to show how easy it is to get the lessons.

Choke is no where near the same as aeon or sap stop pretending that it is, one is uncurable remember?

That isn't a solution to fighting in choke that is a way to stop a fight before choke.

The number of lines is pretty much doubbled..

Finally and this is my favorite one people saying I'm the only one whom believes that this is this way. Just Glom meta gaming that is.

No, they're arguing against you stating that CHOKE is barrier to combat entry. Think about that slowly. Let it marinate in your thought-juice before you flash-fry it.

1) There are better ways to get the lessons. That's not really "easy," that's a lot of grinding, and the more people doing it the harder it gets as the credit market is bought out and prices skyrocket.
2) You stated that you had to rewrite your system to function in choke. You also have to rewrite your system to function in sap and aeon. In fact, they use much the same timing mechanism, except sap is half the time. Removing choke doesn't change that you still have to write your system 1 way for "normal" and another way for "delayed actions". If you don't, you're never curing it anyways.
3) Wait, what? Forcing them to choke isn't "stopping a fight before choke," it's using it against them. And then killing them in choke.
4) The number of lines is doubled from what? Choke adds exactly 1 line.
5) Nobody said you were "the only one who thought this way." People have pointed out some flaws with the objections you've raised. Which is completely different. Trying to pin it on "Glom meta gaming" is... well... heh.