shadowdancer. Let her be any other class in game. Monk, warrior with arties, Guardian, anything. Even Moondancer which is closely related, I assume her success might somewhat similiar ... or wait it won't. Incurable succumb and choke are the win ticket. Shieldstun so you can't tumble or cure even in the delay. There is no leaving the room. Thats it.

I still think that druids have it too easy. But I know how to deal with them, thats not the case at all.

I would probably personally fork over the credits to see Celina guildhop to something that requires skill and timing outside of shadowdancer and utterly fail for the rest of her life as she dies repeatedly like she did in mag only to ragequit and whine about the force of the zerg which she is now happily apart of.

You give far much credit Xavius where its never due.

I think anyone of Cel's glom buddies that she now calls friends could and would easily recognize she has -never- been successful at a class. That is something admins should look at, someone with a complete utter lack of competence in every other class in the game suddenly joins one and has massive success to the point that she was top rankings for kills? That isn't a big red flag that something might be wrong?

This is no flame, I think its more than a valid point.

And in before the 'counter' comes in. Sure, maybe someone else handled the usually flawless shieldstun whoring with fae, succumb doing all the work better than I did. Congrats. I could care less. I never claim to be able to handle every situation in the game, especially when Shadowdancers are ent-bane with nymph and can kill most of my offense as an affliction. I recognize good combatants who are worth their weight, Lyco is a wonderful combatant who can kill without choke and can use choke to excel even further. But that is a massive difference between what you see from most SDs and the other choke combos. But go ahead, ready to hear the Romero is always so negative/misinformed/passive shackles and 'crucify crucify spam wah wah' its 7p but continue.

Besides completely flaming someone who never rants or complains about anyone else.. oh wait.. I'd agree, it's true that most systems aren't able to cure and MOST of us don't practice fighting in choke unless it it's in actuality and that we should learn to cure manually, but the fact still stands that if you incurable time-slow afflict ANYONE in a group that has the synergy of Harbinger-Shadowdancer-Crow- they'll most likely die unless they can escape right away and even that's a far stretch.

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you above the massive balance loss-crucifixion bull. Please repeat?

You're a Nihilist with Disfigure, Shackles, Crucify, Coldaura, Contagion. You are equipped to the teeth to deal with Choke. Your inability to deal with this does not mean that Celina is a bad fighter, it means that you don't know how to utilize your class to the best of your abilities.

Perma aeon should not have been succumb, that will get remedied and Shadowdancers can get into a normal swing.

...I really don't see what the problem is with zergs. If you have four Celestines and one Ascendant coming in all at once, you're probably going to die.

If you have 4 Nihilists coming in and one Ascendant, you're probably going to die.

If you have 4 Moondancers coming in and one Ascendant, you're also probably going to die.

I've been spending some time in Imperian lately, and I've noticed that group combat is always going to happen. If you don't like it, don't play MMOs or MUDs. There is always someone with a bigger and better system than you. There is always someone out there who has spent most of their adult life (or adolescent life for our younger crowd) writing out systems that could crush yours. Its a fact of life. If your system can't cure something, then perhaps you should look at what you can do to make it better instead of pointing a finger at someone else.

Succumb and Choke have already been nerfed substantially. Choke used to be room wide. Now, however, it is simply targetted. Meanwhile, if you have someone who can summon (not Planar summon, but I suppose that could work too), they could easily get you out of it. Or if you have a healer nearby, they could also keep you alive while you're trying to get out of it as well. There are several options available to you to survive in Choke.

Instead of ranting about how Choke is an OP skill, why not think of things i.e., group tactics that will help you get out of the said situation?

And please, let us keep the bashing down to a bare minimum. This is Lusternia, not Imperian. We know better.

The problem with zergs is that since numbers tend to trump everything, it discourages people from getting involved in combat, and therefore into Lusternia. It's better for Lusternia's growth if newcomers find at least a little encouragement in their first attempts alongside the rather huge obstacles and discouragements they face.

The other problem with zergs is that they create too much positive reinforcement, in the game theory sense: whichever side is winning tends to attract and retain more members, while the side that is losing tends to lose them, which means once one side has an advantage it becomes increasingly less likely for them to lose it. This isn't saying once there's an advantage it becomes unbreakable, and thus, it isn't disproved by the fact that the power balance has shifted in the past. It does mean that power imbalances tend to last too long and grow too extreme before something finally shifts them, which limits the dynamism of the game and also tends to discourage newcomers from getting involved.

That there are newcomers who get past these discouragements doesn't mean they're not there. The question isn't whether anyone will get past them, it's how many. For a long time now, the vast majority of Lusternia's active, known players are the same people or their alts; truly new faces making a real impact are scarce and all the more noticeable because of it. If we want the game to grow, we need to fix that.

The way combat encourages zerging is one thing we can do to change that, by making mechanical disincentives to winning by sheer strength of numbers. That doesn't mean eliminating the value of numbers, it just means some tweaks that provide some disadvantages to balance the advantages of numbers, or some limit to how much sheer numbers can overwhelm other factors.

Realism isn't the point because the realism bus didn't just leave a long time ago, it actually never had a stop anywhere near Lusternia. But if you need a realism explanation, ask anyone who has done actual combat how many people can really simultaneously be attacking a single target with melee weapons before they get in each other's way.

But, it's not really the zergs.

It's the relative zergs of solid combatants.

Examine the game as if there were no orgs whatsoever. While the orgs are linked with the history of combat, take them all out of the equation and look at it purely as groupings of individuals. Pretend that all the individuals are black dots on a white plane.

Some dots seem affixed to a certain spot, and don't seem to move.

Some artibtrarily meander about the plane without any seeming rhyme or reason.

Some gravitate towards one another, towards large groups of dots, or have others gravitate towards them.

Now, while these clusters of dots have shifted around, and there's some intermingling of dots back and forth between them, we wind up with two real clusters of people that seem to wind up fighting eachother.

Sure, they've shifted orgs, but the clusters are the same.

The core of old Celenwilde vs. the Magnagora core.

Sure, Celenwilde is in Glomdoring now, but it's effectively much the same cluster of dots- it just traded some of the "stationary" dots from Celest/Serenwilde for the sationary dots in Glomdoring.

The "gravity" each cluster exhibits on the other dots on the plane, and the size of the clusters themselves, waxes and wanes back and forth, but the vague shape always remains the same.

So, reducing the impact of raw zerg isn't going to really mean much, because the true core of these clusters isn't really all that much of a zerg- they're just blobs of outlier-ish powerful, skillful players that wind up clustering together.

And, thankfully for the average player, wind up fighting eachother usually.

However, if it was deemed that we wanted to try and prevent this sort of lopsided cluster effect, the way to do it would be to give strong incentives/disincentives to not having too many "gravity producing" dots in one place.

That, and making sure the RP (at least as far as the divine/admin generated stuff) works to make sure all orgs are combatant neutral/positive, instead of some hamstringing their fighters to the extent they leave for one with better incentives.

Failing this, the best alternative is what seems to happen naturally here usually- make sure the biggest clusters of dots see eachother as prime adversaries. Because the alternative to that is probably worse for game diversity, by a good margin, than the status quo.

1) You do realize I quit when Mag was on top, right? I'll let that one slide. I'm sure it's hard to remember "facts" when you're in a foaming at the mouth rage.

2) All this is great and all, but I killed you in a 1v1. Actually, I made you divinefire, then killed you. Why? Because you're not as great as you think you are. My nymph passified both Grim and your demon, and you didn't do anything about it. Love ticked and coldaura/contagion stop hitting, and you didn't do anything about it. Then I choked you and you collapsed into a fit of tears and bitching because your formulaic balance loss whoring just didn't work. You lost because you're just like Talkan. Ego the size of the moon, but when it comes down to it, you can't back it up.

You know, it's funny. When you beat me 1v1, I fixed the blackout/aeon bug in my system, dusted myself off, and tried again...and was successful. You, on the other hand, just bitch and moan and try to blame it on anything but yourself. You lost because you can't adapt. You have your win ticket with Nihilist "eventually I get lucky" balance loss, and when it doesn't work (for the record, I had auras to compensate for your predictable tactics ) you just scream about it. If I'm incompetent and still kicking your butt, what does that make you?

My suggestion to you, Romero. Hop in the arena with Gregori and figure out what you are doing wrong. That is, if you two can stop moaning about me handing your butts to you long enough to learn something.

(Also, you forgot that I beat you as a Caco bard in a FFA. )

edit: Oh, I just wanted to throw this out there. If fae tic every 12 seconds, that's 24 seconds you didn't notice your demon just sitting their scratching it's butt, along with the two messages you missed. All before choke. No excuses, Rommy, your loss is all on you.

Still waiting for you to actually do this. I mean without 2 others there to do most of the work for you while you shield stun and succumb.

Cause every time it's been me and you, you run. Hell I whiffed toadcurse on you and you were back in Glomdoring faster than I could figure out where you went.

Edit:: Just for the record, the one toadcurse you and Urazial and whichever third person was there (doesn't feel like looking in the log right now) did get on me, and end in a stomp, was not because of your skill. It was because of a focus loop in my system draining my own mana with 50 focus bodies as soon as I woke. So yeah, when you actually hand my butt to me then you can talk.

Agree with Lendren pretty much all the way and Akui on some points.

Basically its always the same core people of Mag vs the rest of the game. I fight the same people I used to fight as Celenwilde... Desitrus, Shuyin, Xiel.

Point is, most have no interest in balance or ever wanting to play Mag or anything. Partly because of our reputation, and partly because of the niche of few wanting to be seen as 'evil'. So if the game is inherently imbalanced in numbers this way, was before, and will keep that up, how do you change it without giving someone or something too much.

We have already covered the ground that the game isn't attracting new people. And its not like Shuyin said of 'make it attractive for others to come here', Shuyin went glom for a change of pace because Celenwilde was just boring (I think Serenwilde was winning everything at the time and Celest was just the lapdog), well now Glom is winning everything, Old Celenwilde= Glom now except for a few leeches who hop when the time is good so they can bask in the victory of the zerg.

Something needs to be done because I know a few of the balance emails that went to the admins involved the problem of no consequence zerging and complete imbalance or incentives to make it an even fight. But nothing will be done and the game will continue to lose players, I am here till my new laptop comes in and will be around in less increments after that as I engage in games that promote fair balanced pvp (to the point that they slow character creation for opposing sides to help scale the conflict, not something worth doing here but it an example of mechanics which Lusternia lacks)

Some of the best fights have been when its even numbers and there is a fair chance for everyone involved, thats when you get the best moments of the game and the worst where you know your loss was your own fault, not the fault of the zerg.

One problem is that the zerg doesn't see itself as a shameful act, its whatever it takes to win and 'this isn't a 1 on 1 game' excuse. There isn't a pride in being self sufficient and as much as I think Shuyin did great things for glom (giving them a leader and hope and attracting other fighters), most would crumble without his leadership.

edit: Celina... those tactics I bragged about and went on for days on Jhagar while you were still there. Of course you won, you have passive means to beat my grim/demon which stops my offense, already mentioned that. You set healing auras to cure epilepsy, scabies, aeon, broken limbs, and maybe temperature (i would test it out if I actually hopped to see what could be mantained since I don't know for sure at the moment), point is... healer choke has it made as I always said repeatedly, its an amazing class and props to you for winning 1 on 1 when the class is made to excel in choke with its passive cures on top of drink. You won, congrats. I don't care about ego or care about bragging and half your 'points' I already mentioned. And not much you can do when you let the fae do it for you while you just repeatedly shieldstun and let passive cures for you. You play a wonderful class, but you are far from a wonderful combatant.

Talk about throwing nonexistent weight around... then again I suppose this is why the internet exists in some degree- for people to spout violent words and accusations that IRL would simply yield being put into submission. I'm sure glad you let that one slide, I know Romero can finally get a good night's sleep now.

Akui makes some good points.

What'd be interesting to see is how many gravity-generating dots there are and whether or not having an equal amount of them in every org is what's needed.

I personally don't think group combat is a bad thing, with the way things are polarized, Lusternia does seem to be a very team-focused game, and I don't think it's unreasonable to approach things from that point of view in order to succeed.

Wait. How can people argue both that a) Celina the SD Healer never kills them solo and B) that SD can kill people by just using passives/scourge/succumb/choke?

Shh, people are talking on the internet. Logic has no place!

It's pretty simple really. The two arguments do not contradict each other.

1) Nobody said Celina never kills people solo. I said Celina has never killed me solo. She either Df's and runs or just runs, before the fight has even started.

2) There is an SD out there that nobody she has fought knows what her third skillset is, because all her toadcurses have been choke + passives plus wait a few seconds. (in fact her current fighting partners from Serenwilde used to make the same comments and jokes about her as everyone else does.)

Hell the SD Fae are all built around complete hindering. Paralysis, passive limb breaks from rigormortis, even a timed instakill if in the right conditions, and that's just the Sluagh which has more than those as well, but then there is barghest for more paralysis, and pixie for sleep. Add all that in with succumb, and clot from bleeding and yes SD offense is based all around passives.

Celina just adds in shieldstun to the waiting process and to assist the cure hindering, but it is certainly not needed.

Trying to argue it as anything but a completely passive offense is just ridiculous.

Oh you mean me, Urazial (non-demi), Alacardael vs you, Barrin and one of the L druids in a Hartstone demesne?

It's never actually been just "you and me," but okay. I guess I'm just so terrified of you. Funny you keep bringing up your buggy toadcurse trigger as if it was your wasted 8 power and not the 5+ people attacking me in etherseren that motivated me to leave. I'll duel you if you want, just say the word.

You were toadcursed twice in that fight. Maybe you should fix your system, as I suggested a while back.



You were participating in the zerg when Mag was on top. Where was this concern then? It gets old hearing people bitch about "unfair conflict" or "not enough pvp" when what they mean is there isn't enough fighting on their terms. Do you honestly think I'm the only one who noticed you went dormant when Mag started getting competition, and came back only when Mag was on top again? It's no secret a lot of Mag's fighters have vanished all of the sudden. If you want "meaningful pvp" you can find it.

The zerg sucks, but every side does it. Your genuine concern for balance is transparent. If you want, I can drag out that quote of you telling a certain Glom that if you went Glom, you'd go SD and "buff the out of Night."

As I said, you lost because you failed to do the most basic of tasks, keeping me rejected and your demon aggressive. You may bitch about me when you take the time to learn the basics of having a passive offense.

The weight will shift as it always has in this game. Glom won't eternally be on top.



Oh god, that was sarcasm. What's wrong with you?

Yeah, I'm not even sure what this fascination with "fair fights" is. I mean, there was a 2v2 in Faethorn earlier, and it was a real yawn. Kill Grim Horror, kill demon, behead some ur'guard, watch him decide not to cure anything while he and his partner just try to spam crucify... seriously. It's not like it was majorly fun. I didn't even use any power. Though that might have gotten another kill, I guess.

It's not like even if the numbers are "even" that it's a fair fight, either.

Being on the side that gets zerged is frustrating (trust me, I know), and raiding with a zerg just to stomp the OpFor into the ground for RL hours is pretty lame... but it's not like that's even what's happening here.

I never said I would buff night. I said I would go glom and buff the abilities for novice Wiccans on both sides because they have nothing but vines/nature curse. Wiccans are useless on both sides without trans skills.

It was a yawn, Xenthos. You are right, my partner was fail and you killed my offense which I can't summon back without extreme power cost. I then sat there and let you both hit me for about 2 mins before I walked away.

Seriously though crucify spam, two crucifies? Thats spam, thats like saying crowcaw spam which happened around 4 or 5 times, or choke spam which happens nonstop at 3p. Calling a 7p move spam is ridiculous, its just not possible.

First there was me, Solanis, Barrin. We chased you, urazial, alacrdaeil, and evaine out, Barrin left. Meld gone. You came back.

Second, yes, you did toad me twice. Shock, 2 SD and a Harbinger. Jesus Christ, Batman, did someone say double mana drain? You didn't however get close to killing me till my system had a siezure at the end. Again. No skill on your part. Did I mention the double mana drain?

Third, there has been me and you many times. In fact the very 8 power I whiffed on you and you ran was me and you. Siam showed up after you had already run.

Fourth, I have no doubt if you actually stuck around you could kill me. You do afterall have choke, aurawarp and succumb. However, until you do kill me without having to run to Glomdoring and grab friends, your opinions are the same old Celina opinions of someone who thinks she is good at combat while she has found a neat trick, but give it a couple more months and you will be complaining about SD combat just like you did, nihilist, geomancer, warrior, druid, cacophony... did I leave a guild out?

Can we talk about dots again