Xavius2009-10-27 05:53:55
Just because, somewhere along the way, people forgot just what distort is:
Add greater pent to the list of things that distortion drops, then one minute sounds like outright charity. I personally would be honored to stand and die if my death takes 500 power from my target.
CODE
NEXUS DISTORT (any guild)
  - Can only be done at a village obelisk that the city or commune controls.
  - Creates a distortion field surrounding the entire village.
  - Prevents any enemy of the city/commune from using most forms of mystic
    transport, such as teleport, tesseract, spores, hermit, etc.
  - Prevents enemies from burrowing, shakes enemies out of ghost form and
    disrupts prismatic barriers around enemies.
  - Lasts one game day (60 minutes) for cities.
  - If placed in a village, will last until the village revolts.
  - Costs 2000 power if used at a village obelisk.
  - Costs 500 power if used at the city or commune nexus.
  - Can only be done at a village obelisk that the city or commune controls.
  - Creates a distortion field surrounding the entire village.
  - Prevents any enemy of the city/commune from using most forms of mystic
    transport, such as teleport, tesseract, spores, hermit, etc.
  - Prevents enemies from burrowing, shakes enemies out of ghost form and
    disrupts prismatic barriers around enemies.
  - Lasts one game day (60 minutes) for cities.
  - If placed in a village, will last until the village revolts.
  - Costs 2000 power if used at a village obelisk.
  - Costs 500 power if used at the city or commune nexus.
Add greater pent to the list of things that distortion drops, then one minute sounds like outright charity. I personally would be honored to stand and die if my death takes 500 power from my target.
Esano2009-10-27 06:29:55
QUOTE (Xavius @ Oct 27 2009, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just because, somewhere along the way, people forgot just what distort is:
Add greater pent to the list of things that distortion drops, then one minute sounds like outright charity. I personally would be honored to stand and die if my death takes 500 power from my target.
CODE
NEXUS DISTORT (any guild)
  - Can only be done at a village obelisk that the city or commune controls.
  - Creates a distortion field surrounding the entire village.
  - Prevents any enemy of the city/commune from using most forms of mystic
    transport, such as teleport, tesseract, spores, hermit, etc.
  - Prevents enemies from burrowing, shakes enemies out of ghost form and
    disrupts prismatic barriers around enemies.
  - Lasts one game day (60 minutes) for cities.
  - If placed in a village, will last until the village revolts.
  - Costs 2000 power if used at a village obelisk.
  - Costs 500 power if used at the city or commune nexus.
  - Can only be done at a village obelisk that the city or commune controls.
  - Creates a distortion field surrounding the entire village.
  - Prevents any enemy of the city/commune from using most forms of mystic
    transport, such as teleport, tesseract, spores, hermit, etc.
  - Prevents enemies from burrowing, shakes enemies out of ghost form and
    disrupts prismatic barriers around enemies.
  - Lasts one game day (60 minutes) for cities.
  - If placed in a village, will last until the village revolts.
  - Costs 2000 power if used at a village obelisk.
  - Costs 500 power if used at the city or commune nexus.
Add greater pent to the list of things that distortion drops, then one minute sounds like outright charity. I personally would be honored to stand and die if my death takes 500 power from my target.
Yesterday Glomdoring dropped full shrine powers, liveforest (150p, accounting for wildnodes), and nexus inspiration (200p) and possibly surge(150p) against a group of 4 people when they had over 9 defenders (Shuyin being among them) in the Dark Nest.
There doesn't seem to be much "discretion" when it comes to "discretionary powers" because the cost is truly insignificant compared to the income, especially for the leading org. You may think 500p is a lot of power, but when you consider bringing in 13,000+ power per irl day you can distort 24/7 and still MAKE power. Wildnodes just exacerbates this further, but the problem is there even for non-wildnodes orgs.
Unknown2009-10-27 06:44:05
Thanks, Esano. I was wondering if I was the only one that didn't consider 500p/hr a lot.
Xavius2009-10-27 06:44:53
QUOTE (Esano @ Oct 27 2009, 01:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yesterday Glomdoring dropped full shrine powers, liveforest (150p, accounting for wildnodes), and nexus inspiration (200p) and possibly surge(150p) against a group of 4 people when they had over 9 defenders (Shuyin being among them) in the Dark Nest.
There doesn't seem to be much "discretion" when it comes to "discretionary powers" because the cost is truly insignificant compared to the income, especially for the leading org. You may think 500p is a lot of power, but when you consider bringing in 13,000+ power per irl day you can distort 24/7 and still MAKE power. Wildnodes just exacerbates this further, but the problem is there even for non-wildnodes orgs.
There doesn't seem to be much "discretion" when it comes to "discretionary powers" because the cost is truly insignificant compared to the income, especially for the leading org. You may think 500p is a lot of power, but when you consider bringing in 13,000+ power per irl day you can distort 24/7 and still MAKE power. Wildnodes just exacerbates this further, but the problem is there even for non-wildnodes orgs.
How much power do you think you take by killing Ladies, Daughters, angels, demons, Aspects, or elemental lords? In all cases, it's less than 500p. Mission accomplished.
Unknown2009-10-27 06:59:27
I think we all know the reason why they raided at around 1-2 am with Narsrim, Ceren, Esano, Ruiku, Vathael, Ixion (looks like slightly more than 4; Solanis tried to come with and died) in the dark nest, and it certainly wasn't to take power. I called powers because it makes them leave, and it did, but this doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.
I still don't believe that having distort stop/delax cubixing will just devalue cubixes to the point that they're not a good investment. Bear in mind, I am taking a hit in the escaping too, but I know that it's better this way.
I do understand the point people make when they mistakenly enter the wrong territory though, so I think 20 seconds could be shortened to 5-8 instead with no distort.
But it seems Estarra wants them to just not work. And with that in mind, I'd prefer if it was nexus distort that only did that, more exits were added from Elohora/Luciphage (if what Ixion says is right), and some exits that cannot be distorted from cosmic would be nice then.
I still don't believe that having distort stop/delax cubixing will just devalue cubixes to the point that they're not a good investment. Bear in mind, I am taking a hit in the escaping too, but I know that it's better this way.
I do understand the point people make when they mistakenly enter the wrong territory though, so I think 20 seconds could be shortened to 5-8 instead with no distort.
But it seems Estarra wants them to just not work. And with that in mind, I'd prefer if it was nexus distort that only did that, more exits were added from Elohora/Luciphage (if what Ixion says is right), and some exits that cannot be distorted from cosmic would be nice then.
Unknown2009-10-27 09:01:55
QUOTE (Sojiro @ Oct 27 2009, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think we all know the reason why they raided at around 1-2 am with Narsrim, Ceren, Esano, Ruiku, Vathael, Ixion (looks like slightly more than 4; Solanis tried to come with and died) in the dark nest, and it certainly wasn't to take power. I called powers because it makes them leave, and it did, but this doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.
I still don't believe that having distort stop/delax cubixing will just devalue cubixes to the point that they're not a good investment. Bear in mind, I am taking a hit in the escaping too, but I know that it's better this way.
I do understand the point people make when they mistakenly enter the wrong territory though, so I think 20 seconds could be shortened to 5-8 instead with no distort.
But it seems Estarra wants them to just not work. And with that in mind, I'd prefer if it was nexus distort that only did that, more exits were added from Elohora/Luciphage (if what Ixion says is right), and some exits that cannot be distorted from cosmic would be nice then.
I still don't believe that having distort stop/delax cubixing will just devalue cubixes to the point that they're not a good investment. Bear in mind, I am taking a hit in the escaping too, but I know that it's better this way.
I do understand the point people make when they mistakenly enter the wrong territory though, so I think 20 seconds could be shortened to 5-8 instead with no distort.
But it seems Estarra wants them to just not work. And with that in mind, I'd prefer if it was nexus distort that only did that, more exits were added from Elohora/Luciphage (if what Ixion says is right), and some exits that cannot be distorted from cosmic would be nice then.
NOOO I was just trying to take a peek and see who was there. I didn't realise there were several room names, so you weren't actually in the same room and thus could come chase me.
Otherwise I would have tped, I'm not that stingy on power.
To stay on topic, I don't think distort should completely cancel cubix.
Llandros2009-10-27 14:59:30
QUOTE (Estarra @ Oct 27 2009, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Let's try to keep it civil and not take things personally!
Anyway, I'm not crazy about the carcer idea. I believe the main reason we changed the distortion discretionary power to be able to be called on all planes was to help curb hit and run raiding. That teleport artifacts weren't affected seems to me to be simply an oversight on our part. Certainly, it doesn't make sense that the ONLY effective raiders are those with teleport artifacts. Yes, those artifacts should make it easier to raid but they shouldn't be REQUIRED to raid. So, I have to ask myself, how do those without teleport artifacts raid when a distortion field is up? Perhaps they have an aethership on standby or have a route mapped out to an archway or portal or whatever. I really don't think teleport artifacts should provide a runaround to the clear purpose of distortion fields which is why I continue to favour either completely negating their use while in a distortion field or, at least, making them delay along the lines that we've talked about. I do not buy that this is a "nerf" to these artifacts insofar that there is some perception that the purpose of the artifact was to circumvent what (I think) was the obvious reason why we changed the distortion discretionary power in the first place.
Anyway, I'm not crazy about the carcer idea. I believe the main reason we changed the distortion discretionary power to be able to be called on all planes was to help curb hit and run raiding. That teleport artifacts weren't affected seems to me to be simply an oversight on our part. Certainly, it doesn't make sense that the ONLY effective raiders are those with teleport artifacts. Yes, those artifacts should make it easier to raid but they shouldn't be REQUIRED to raid. So, I have to ask myself, how do those without teleport artifacts raid when a distortion field is up? Perhaps they have an aethership on standby or have a route mapped out to an archway or portal or whatever. I really don't think teleport artifacts should provide a runaround to the clear purpose of distortion fields which is why I continue to favour either completely negating their use while in a distortion field or, at least, making them delay along the lines that we've talked about. I do not buy that this is a "nerf" to these artifacts insofar that there is some perception that the purpose of the artifact was to circumvent what (I think) was the obvious reason why we changed the distortion discretionary power in the first place.
I'd be ok with reasoning that distortion delaying a cubix isn't really nerfing the artifact. I'd even support it blocking orgbixes.
I think the 20 second delay in enemy territory is a lot more iffy mostly because of how it would play out on faethorn and have a larger impact on how a cubix functions.
Mirami2009-10-27 16:10:47
500p is a -lot-. It's not thrown up every time an enemy enters distort-able territory. For 500p, blocking cubixes seems to be an acceptable result.
Llandros2009-10-27 17:09:39
I'm not so sure about 500 power being “a lot.†Consider we invest 1,000,000 power in single characters that could (as many have) just up and disappear. Considering that organizations can make over 10,000 power a month with Domoths/Villages/Totems/wildnodes/etc. It doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of the game.
Shiri2009-10-27 17:26:25
It's a lot to waste considering people are likely to just walk out anyway and it only lasts an hour.
Unknown2009-10-27 17:34:35
QUOTE (Llandros @ Oct 27 2009, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not so sure about 500 power being “a lot.†Consider we invest 1,000,000 power in single characters that could (as many have) just up and disappear. Considering that organizations can make over 10,000 power a month with Domoths/Villages/Totems/wildnodes/etc. It doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of the game.
Well, assuming that one of the aims is to reduce kick-and-runs more so than genuine raids... why should it cost more than that?
This is also from the perspective of a powerful org, you are talking. Comparatively, what might Serenwilde's power income be in comparison? The top org will always be able to take full advantage of pretty much everything at their disposal at pretty much any time they wish - what about the people down on their luck?
Lorick2009-10-27 18:24:31
Not sure of this has been mentioned, but what if Distort slowed exit from the plan by a small degree for most forms of transportation if in a hostile plane, but also blocked entrance to that plane for a period of time? Like, say Celestia is being harassed. A distortion is raised, preventing cubixes, teleport, tess, ect into Celestia for one Lusternia day. The raiders already there can keep raiding in a serious raid and leave with minimum issue, but it would prevent the most annoying factor of hit and run raids in that those responsible return to harass again as soon as the defenders leave.
Unknown2009-10-27 20:55:37
This entire conversation seems so tertiary to the root of the thing.
Lets say that we find Magical Mystery Solution that stops kick and run raiding as we know it.
The people who do those raids are just going to find the next best alternative, and do that instead. Because typically, they don't really want combat, unless its someone they can stomp into the ground.
I mean, what would we get instead? More of what we already see likely. Running through prime, killing random denizens, and generally being an idiot about things, moreso when there just really aren't that many people around. I mean, sure, we can fix this one annoying thing, but it's just the dutch child with their finger in the dam.
At least with the cubix raids, they're obnoxious, but relatively out of the way.
Lets say that we find Magical Mystery Solution that stops kick and run raiding as we know it.
The people who do those raids are just going to find the next best alternative, and do that instead. Because typically, they don't really want combat, unless its someone they can stomp into the ground.
I mean, what would we get instead? More of what we already see likely. Running through prime, killing random denizens, and generally being an idiot about things, moreso when there just really aren't that many people around. I mean, sure, we can fix this one annoying thing, but it's just the dutch child with their finger in the dam.
At least with the cubix raids, they're obnoxious, but relatively out of the way.
Unknown2009-10-27 22:17:51
I'm completely against the people who are saying that this is not a nerf to teleporting artifacts; regardless of the solution, this -is- a nerf to cubixes, toruses, orgblixes and whatever else. When people purchased these items, they bought them "for faster travel." The argument stating that "for faster travel" doe not entail raiding is wrong because "for faster travel" implicitly, without qualification, includes "to and from enemy territories/planes." People did not buy the item "for faster travel excluding to and from enemy territories/planes" as "for faster travel excluding to and from enemy territories/planes" is -not- the same as "for faster travel". Whether by intention or not, teleporting artifacts INCLUDED "to and from enemy territories/planes," and whether consciously or not, people purchased an item with that ability. The statement that one did not purchase it for "to and from enemy territories/planes" may be true with in itself (including \\ one not using it for such purposes), but again, that statement has no bearing on the actual artifact's ability to travel "to and from enemy territories/planes."
Any solution that wishes to hinder the use of a teleporting artifact is nerfing the artifact. The qualifications to the usage of said artifacts apparently were not stated originally, and quite frankly, to completely nullify the artifact in a situation (in this case, "to and from enemy territory/planes") is analogous to selling a chess set and later deciding that the board was not included (or any individual piece).
The above being said, if the artifacts themselves need to be addressed for the health of the whole game, then so be it. However, any solution should be -fully conscious- that it is a nerf to teleporting artifacts should they hinder the said artifacts in any way. As this is what will most likely happen, the least done to an artifact while still being a successful change is the least offense against current teleporting artifact owners. The solutions favoring a time delay seem the most sensible in this light, but then the worry must be to find a time which is not rending the item unusable or unfavorable. The artifacts have always been the best way to achieve "faster travel," and they should remain as such.
----
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the following:
From enemy territory: +10 second delay
Shrine Distortion (any plane): +5 second delay
Nexus Distortion: +10 second delay
Shrine and Nexus Distortion: +20 second delay
My fear is that any time greater than a minute completely undermines the teleporting artifacts advantage in traveling faster. A cubixer leaving enemy territory with both distortions up would require a total of 30 seconds, which seems fair to me.
Now, before I click 'add reply', the top portion of this post stands separate from the bottom half. I admit that my understanding of balance is skewed and underdeveloped, and my solution should be taken lightly. The first argument, however, requires no knowledge of game balance: any objections to my solution are not objections to my first argument.
Any solution that wishes to hinder the use of a teleporting artifact is nerfing the artifact. The qualifications to the usage of said artifacts apparently were not stated originally, and quite frankly, to completely nullify the artifact in a situation (in this case, "to and from enemy territory/planes") is analogous to selling a chess set and later deciding that the board was not included (or any individual piece).
The above being said, if the artifacts themselves need to be addressed for the health of the whole game, then so be it. However, any solution should be -fully conscious- that it is a nerf to teleporting artifacts should they hinder the said artifacts in any way. As this is what will most likely happen, the least done to an artifact while still being a successful change is the least offense against current teleporting artifact owners. The solutions favoring a time delay seem the most sensible in this light, but then the worry must be to find a time which is not rending the item unusable or unfavorable. The artifacts have always been the best way to achieve "faster travel," and they should remain as such.
----
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the following:
From enemy territory: +10 second delay
Shrine Distortion (any plane): +5 second delay
Nexus Distortion: +10 second delay
Shrine and Nexus Distortion: +20 second delay
My fear is that any time greater than a minute completely undermines the teleporting artifacts advantage in traveling faster. A cubixer leaving enemy territory with both distortions up would require a total of 30 seconds, which seems fair to me.
Now, before I click 'add reply', the top portion of this post stands separate from the bottom half. I admit that my understanding of balance is skewed and underdeveloped, and my solution should be taken lightly. The first argument, however, requires no knowledge of game balance: any objections to my solution are not objections to my first argument.
Daganev2009-10-27 22:39:47
problem with only 20 seconds, is that you can just put up serpent, and nobody can touch you while you teleport away. Making the timelimit meaningless.
Sarrasri2009-10-27 23:07:15
If distortion is up, serpent is almost useless anyways, since distortion disrupts serpent...
Tervic2009-10-27 23:10:07
QUOTE (Sarrasri @ Oct 27 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If distortion is up, serpent is almost useless anyways, since distortion disrupts serpent...
Shrine or nexus? I think we should come up with a standardized way to differentiate between the two.
Unknown2009-10-27 23:19:25
GP would be the problem, actually, but we're just going in circles as far as alternatives go now.
Unknown2009-10-27 23:35:55
Total time would be 30 seconds if both were raised. But as I said, I'm not fully acquainted with game balance.
Lehki2009-10-27 23:44:09
QUOTE (Sojiro @ Oct 27 2009, 07:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
GP would be the problem, actually, but we're just going in circles as far as alternatives go now.
How about if distort decreases the length of great pent? I think the only reason to have up to a minute delay was to deal with great pent + cubix?
