At the same time, the "harm" is trivial. It's a reduction in future passive power gains. How many vernals does Glomdoring have running around now?

It's still something. And we can't DL raid anymore, cause, well...avatars/DLs/supernals are stupidly strong now.

Sure. However, you're still looking at a loss that's mostly emotional. If your goal is to cause equivalent "harm," don't look as much to the mechanics. Tear down a shrine in the city itself. Better yet, raise a new one in its place. It won't last long, but it'll make for quite the insult.

But but but... that's RP!!!

As annoying as your hit-and-runs are, I much prefer it this way than before raiding was "nerfed into the ground." Some of you really do need more hobbies.

I refute the belief that half-formed/avatars are 'unraidable' now. As I told the envoys, I've checked and re-checked - the only change, in basic attack output, is that the Supernals/DLs now deal damage equal to what the Avatars have always dealt. And then the Avatars are slightly more effective on top of that.

They've a few new tricks up their sleeves across the board (one of which lead to a pretty painful display for Glomdoring last time because of an error (monks were triggering something at 3x the speed as anyone else)), but I'm quite sure they're survivable.

The only serious effect it is all going to have is that you will no longer see 12-14 people plowing through avatars/lords as easily as they did before. You might need a group of 20 or so strong people to take them out. And, in my personal opinion, that's probably how it should be.

And, as an afterthought - yes, it seems like we've taken away the difficulty of 'hurting' another org - probably have. We've made it take a lot of effort, and a lot of effort means there's probably a good reason it's happening. That is to say, it actually means something.

Someone (Xavius, I believe?) pointed out that there's lots of ways you can lash out without actually smashing heads. You can raze a shrine in their territory (prime or cosmic/ethereal) - and even raise one of your own. I remember how infuriated Celest was when Magnagora did it - and how angry Magnagora was when Celest did it!

Fain and I even popped over to the shrine to laugh darkly/chuckle heartily and cheer on our little paw- er, mortals!

There's ways you can 'hurt' each other with objectives that aren't 'grief them harder' or 'kill all the collegium mobs' or 'kill the lol nexus tutor'. Hm, I remember once upon a time, in a land far far away, making it a game to see who could get to a particular landmark within enemy territory and make an emote at a certain person, and manage to escape with our lives!

Yet you never really complained when it was Glomdoring getting squished, if I recall properly. Or at least, I don't recall all the complaints from you and Lendren concerning the negative impact of raiding back when Serenwilde was on the top. Ah, but now that the shoe's on the other foot there are problems with raiding to the degree that nigh invulnerable supermobs are preferable. Amusing.

Saying it was because of the monks isn't correct, really. Sure, the DL had a chance to counter-attack whenever attacked and it did like 1k each time, but it didn't trigger often enough to cause the amount of death it did. Evaine was the only monk who attacked, and it only triggered maybe 3 times from her attacks, 1 of which didn't happen until the bulk of people were dead anyway. I hyperactived and died before I even got balance back from the room-wide attacks. Anyone who uses hyperactive knows it only takes about 2 seconds to get balance back from that. I've been on avatar raids before, and never has a group been wiped out that easily, especially from the weakest one.

Why would I complain about something that I did not participate in at all? I heard plenty of complaining from Glomdoring, sure, and I even agreed (in spirit more than words, perhaps) that it got a bit excessive at times. There were plenty of concessions made to help curb the raiding back then, too, at least by my recollections.

There are many reasons people raid, I'm sure, and not all of them are as noble (from either side of the fence) as the raiders like to believe.

This argument happens literally every time. Every time. Must we all have it again? The people on top never see anything wrong. The people on the bottom always see things wrong. That's how it works.

I assure you, comparatively, Gwyllgi and Luna (who's attacks themselves have not been changed) are still stronger than Baalphegar, though the attacks themselves have been equalized (ie they deal the same amount, though other modifiers come into play that make the former stronger than the latter, though I don't think the difference is overly noticable).

So maybe you're finally getting a taste of what other people have endured raiding Night/Moon Avatars? I'm not really sure what you're looking for - we didn't go in and buff their attacks past the Nature Avatars. We meticulously ensured they were right about even. Heck, if you want to be really specific, some of them used to give stun affliction, which was changed to knock you off equilibrium or balance for a similar period of time, for technical reasons.

Maybe you just need more people!

No, we've killed Moon Avatars, in Shrine effects and Liveforest, with 4 fewer people than we had on that raid (no discretionaries or shrine effects).

It was the spam of damage-on-attack that did us in (when combined with Ashtorath's AoE), and only two of those were triggered by a second hit I think. And more people attacking == more ticks of the damage owchy, so... eh. It doesn't even matter if it does less damage the more people there are, because those more people are just making it tick faster. Unless half the group is supposed to stand there and not attack at all.

Once the little people die off to that, the mobs get harder and the rest of the group dies off. Which is, again, what happened to us.

It seems like I remember Sarrasri and a handful of Serens traipsing through Magnagora destroying statues overnight. There are ways to harm the cities like this, trust me.

I like free marble, that's all. Wasn't really retaliation for anything. >.>

The changes are for the better, overall. Raids still happen, and I can pretty much rely on logging in to one soloist or another killing some loyal or another. It's annoying as heck.

But, it's far less demoralizing than having to spend the next few RL days recovering from whichever super-org decided to overreact to this-or-that and blast supermobs into the ground. The flame is just now getting close to recovering from what happend RL months ago.

And, when org balance is lopsided, that's really what it's about. Morale. Keeping the morale of the losing org high enough that they don't hemmorage activity. Dropping an org's supermobs should be the pentultimate sort of conflict- not "someone from your org did relatively trival thing, now we'll make you not want to even bother logging on".

There are still plenty of ways to smack other orgs, as have been pointed out. Even quests like TBC or whatever else (as much as I personally dislike them, they're not going anywhere, so bear mentioning ). Domoth's should be a source of conflict, but with org balance so lopsided, it seems like they're more of a bashing trip as much as anything else.

I can think of a nasty conflict quest which directly harms only the cities (at first). It also drains 300+800+(sorry, the 300 is what the raising org gets!) power every tick from either city (assuming that city isn't in control), and ticks twice a moon cycle! I can think of another quest (which, annoyingly, is part of Mag's epic quest) which makes doing the cities' power quests dangerous for the youth they're normally aimed at. I can't think of anything equivalent to those two for the forests, but maybe I'm missing some. In any case, really, what more do you want?

EDIT: Plus, there's that new fangled Spire. Hurts Mag most of all (it'll affect us if we want to benefit from either our org rezz or our city construct), although I expect Crow users might complain a bit (only org rezz for you guys, but darkseed has other problems).

You failed because the fail raid was full of fail. Which i have to say was surprising because glom usually uses every trick in the book masterfully but not this time.

Yall knew the DL's were buffed so what did you do? The same old thing you do everytime = fail. You went in guns blazing straight for Baal so that you could kill 3 DLs with no defenders (which also got fixed so we can defend now). No attempt was made to fight them one on one.

Just to reapeat this, you took on more than you can chew in a hilarious fashion. Instead of playing it safe you went for broke and then cried foul.

fail

Wait, did we do the same thing or not? This doesn't make sense, you can't sit here and tell us that we did something different, then say we did things the same, turns out that makes you fail.

Also, you seem to think people didn't realize they've been buffed, of course it was known and they wanted to see how they were buffed, it was an exploratory raid. Lets forget to mention that in order to kill DL's you need to attack, not stand there, so how is going in with gun's blazing not a good idea?

Considering the fact that all 3 other orgs have joined together to fight against Glom, and you have yet to even make any attempts on the Night Avatars, well, that just seems fail to me. It's kind of like Sheia, trying to flaunt the fact that we haven't killed a supernal since the changes as some kind of personal victory, it appears you are doing the same.

When you successfully destroy the Avatars (remember you have 3 orgs), then try to tell us what is fail and what is not, but really, you have no idea, so don't spout off . Way to try to latch on to something and just make yourself look stupid, good work, I applaud you.


Edit: spaces were requested, and a period

Forum rp is fun.

The situation changed yet your tactics did not.

You could have taken them on one at a time but chose not to. You took on several at a time and now complain that they were buffed to the point where they can't be defeated. You haven't even tried playing it smart, but no, I'm the one who is stupid.