I know this is old news to all of you but I could not find any relevant topic from when momentum was released so I thought I would bring it up.

Do monks even use Kata chains any longer?

This might just be me but I find the trade off of a speed boost in return for some pre-planned moves to be interesting. As the current mechanics with raze stand though it is almost impossible to chain any forms.

If there is not going to be an auto-raze why can't the mechanics of form chaining and changing be modified as well? Instead of the current requirements for 3 forms used before modification AND a loss of time to change forms why not have a system like the following.

1. The 3rd form in a chain and every form after receives a speed boost
2. Modifying a chain costs 1 momentum

Would this be too powerful?

Can anyone point me to threads that might have given the designers reasoning for the change to raze?

Currently I have only run into the changes in PvE, and I was never all that good at PvP, so I fully admit I might be missing something, but I honestly have no idea right now why kata form chains even exist now.

I was under the impression that they removed kata form chain speed bonuses entirely, invalidating the entire point of form chains - to encourage Monks to play more reactively without setting up 13 forms and basically doing nothing but monitoring it or railroading in to a win or something.

You are wrong.

In some situations you -must- use chains or you simply can't pull off the forms fast enough. Think grapples. (Unless you hyper or maybe if you're faeling.)

I still use chains, but mostly just for hunting (and now that I'm of a higher level, it's more efficient not to >_<)

Evaine's right in that we still need them and at other times, they're the way to go:

- grapples (I see little reason why you shouldn't want to chain these)
- opening chains (Occasionally a good idea if you design them to hinder and build momentum fast against presumed conditions)
- combos (Again, with the right circumstances, you may want to combine actions to stick them faster)

From what I've seen and within my own style (I'm horrible at combat, remember) I usually stick to single forms with the occasional two-form grapple.

I can see the use of a chain for a grapple throw combo, but that is just a chain of 2. So no speed boost beyond just having the auto triggered response when balance is back (which is definitely a nice bonus ).

Running a chain out to 4 though to get the speed bonus just seems pointless now. I just do not see how such a chain could work in a real fight.

I guess it just feels to me like the entire chain system, including the speed boost and the time to modify your chain, is left over from the original system and feels like it does not belong in the current system.

You really need to chain 3 or more forms to lock and throw or writhe entangle will outpace your balance.

I normally do max chains and terminate under 3 or simply switch forms to react to my opponent.

Like so...


_________-T- React, Restart
1st - 2nd ________________________-S- 7a- 8th
_________-C- 3rd - 4th - 5th - 6th -
_________________________________-S- 7b -8th

T = Kata Terminate
C = Continue
S = Switch Form

Edit - Doesn't display right, added lines.

Evaine's helped me a lot combat wise.

I don't forsee chaining except for grapples, also, simply because of the need to react based on what they're curing, if they keep trying to escape, etc. Granted, the only steps I've taken toward combat are making basic nekai attacks.

And, if you're interested in the speed difference:

Hm, sharp nekais seem so much more lethal than whapping things with a metal staff...

Anyways, I changed my hunting to use individual forms after the tahtai change, because chains weren't timing right, it was a pain if I accidentally hit a shield with a non-raze form, and plus I found myself being more involved mentally if I had to input commands every time I regained balance.

For combat though, I haven't yet gotten around to decomposing all the kata chain aliases I had, and surprisingly, the chains I had from before still work as well as they did before, except without tahtai in some forms. I can see an individual-form alias system for combat becoming very complicated very fast (at least, if I have my way with it), and I don't even think I have enough free macros left to make it as simple as I want. Oh well?

I agree with everyone who said earlier that the speed boost after the 3rd form, if it still exists, isn't sizable.

A chain would still be good for zerging/group situations where there's too much spam to properly react anyway. Pick target, start chain, wait till they're gone.

Actually, I've found chains particularly useless in group combat. Especially once you've been a monk for a while, people will either target you outright or will at least have someone hinder you.
Basically, a chain is perfect for situations where you can be sure you won't get interrupted and your target has no chance to react. If you're that far, though, they're probably dead with or without using a chain, so I don't really see much of a point.
And you better make sure you do notice certain key lines, spam or not, to be effective in groups.

I found the thread that mentions the raze change in case anyone was like me and missed it the first time around:

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?showtopic=18106

I am still somewhat at a loss on how you people are using kata chains in a real fight that includes randomly timed rebounding. The risk of hitting it seems to very much outweigh the benefit of a chain.

I can not find any discussion about modifying the mechanics of changing a chain that is in progress but that is what I keep coming back to. Is there some obviously broken aspect that occurs if chain modification had fewer/different requirements?

I was able to predict rebounding as a monk. It takes rebounding six seconds to come back up after being taken down, so most of my katas didn't actually have the rebounding mod. Just the ones that would land on that six second interval.

If you use raktiah'sho to chest they are unable to smoke for rebounding until they cure it. How I've been avoiding it.