Yes, gold certainly is easy to make when you're already a demigod with every possible ability that aids in bashing.

I'm sure lots of noncoms don't even know an out-of-phase person can go through a door and start picking things up.

You can. That's how people buy their keys that they accidentally put a flame sigil on and drop in their shop too, heh.

Soul and out-of-phase are two different things. Regardless, I made millions before I was Demigod. Demigod has nothing to do with how easy it is to make gold. Hell, influencing is a gold factory.

What is the benefit in Lusternia allowing shop-theft?

Since that is, in the end, what Estarra's original question is: Arguments for and against it. Assuming the code is a simple check of a system that's already in place (as seems to be implied by Estarra's suggestion), it's not really going to take much in the way of resources, so that's out.

Thus, it's just a comparison of the negatives of shop theft versus the positives.

What are the positives?

Let's see how long we can keep beating this horse for.

My guess: until the thread is locked.

I don't even understand why we have to weigh the pros and cons of theft. We all know you like to talk a lot, Xenthos. Pro- Someone is now making money off another's incompetence. Con- Someone is now losing out, oenoe. Suggested fixes have already been thrown out there, that really should be all there is to it.

Heh, if that's all there was to it, you wouldn't still be arguing in favour of allowing shop-theft.

And, honestly, you've pegged down the pros and cons pretty well. With, of course, an obvious bias ladled into it which (to me at least) only tells me that there really isn't any benefit to Lusternia as a whole in allowing it. "Incompetence" and "oenoe" are the best arguments shop theft has going for it?

1) One jerk is able to ruin the work of a number of people, woo-hoo.
2) Instead, those same people are allowed to continue doing what they do for fun.

(Yes, I'm aware I'm inserting some bias here as well with "jerk" and "woo-hoo," but hey. A counterexample. )

Saying make a flag on shops to not allow shop theft by way of how it ALWAYS happens is not arguing in its favor. Use your head a little buddy.

I concur.

Not to pass overly harsh judgement here, but the mindset that would have human activity governed by the question "Why should we let you do that?" is the same mindset that leads to paternalist legislation, ethnocentrism, and sundry other traits that generally make one a "bad" human being.

Either shop theft should be curbed or there should be a penalty for the thief.

At issue ultimately is the anger of an uninformed customer.

As a general policy, anytime there is the potential for total loss in a game, that potential should be stated specifically and clearly to the individual about to engage in the at risk behavior. This has been clearly spelled out in the case of player killing (avenger, bully status, pk careful et al) but as of this time, there are no official help scrolls about shop security or the potential for theft.

Therefore it is not reasonable to assume that shopkeepers have whole and complete knowledge of theft and security.

Player help scrolls or advice are unofficial and may be incomplete or not always present when a person decides to set up a shop.

Therefore a player who sets up a shop may be at risk, not be aware of it, and will be justifiably angry at unexpected theft.

Ultimately, I see shop theft as the theft of a players time, not unlike the experience loss for death due to PK.

As such I'd suggest either banning shop theft, or code a system where the shopkeeper victim can invoke avenger upon the thief or chose to pk status forgive as they wish.

lol

This. This, this, a hundred times this.

You messed up. You messed up pretty badly if you let your shop get robbed. However, unlike Kaalak's claim, that doesn't wipe a player out, and stores don't really make insane amounts of money or carry insane amounts of goods in stockpile. Your shop just got robbed, but you aren't broke, and you still have your shop. Everything you did to make the money the first time is still there for you to make it a second time, and I bet it never happens again.

It would be different if shop theft was easy, but it's not. I'm all in favor of shop theft bordering on the impossible. I'm not at all opposed to a loss of time for a particularly large mistake when there are mechanics in place to allow both your recovery and the prevention of it happening in the first place. Life entails risk. Any would-be thief takes a risk for the attempt, and once in a blue moon, it pays out. Anyone who carries gold around in a pack takes a risk. Anyone who leaves city walls (or, in the case of Celest, logs on) takes a risk. This game involves risk at every turn. As long as shop owners are given excellent theft prevention measures, the bold and creative few who pull it off have earned their reward, even if it comes at someone else's expense.

Does having your client lagged when you step into a stockroom count as an insane amount of goods?

Eh. My point is how angry would most people be for example if they engaged in PK and ran afoul of the Avenger rules because they weren't written in any help files? And only word-of-mouth from other players could (assuming the player isn't lying) give them the information?

Or say made a religious post on these forums and got autobanned without the forum policy clearly stating it would happen? (just as an example)

Really my point is more as a company the risks to the customer should be clearly and specifically stated. Also this helps the company protect its own ass (ie preventing complaints) as they can point to the help file.



Also lol. Too true.

It's probably a lot of cheap stuff!

Shop goods don't magically materialize. Someone already had enough gold to buy everything in that shop. Basic scarcity rules limit how much a shop can stock.

Well, I happen to be one of the few people I know of that has actually stolen things from a shop. I can clearly say that I wont ever do it again, this is based on an OOC sympathy for those who have their things stolen. And while it did make me feel terrible as a person on an OOC viewpoint, I don't see a reason to make it impossible.

Doing so would only limit the realistic features of the game and make it harder to immerse yourself. There are already a number of these things that have been cut down that I felt really made the game conflictive and interesting. I can understand modeling to the people who desire a stress free environment, but if you wanna play hugfest2012. Then you should really go buy the computer game in the childrens section of walmart.

This is really just my opinion, I can't speak for anyone else since I happen to like conflict and competition. But I feel that if we keep cutting at this side of the game then it's going to get incredibly boring.

Rather big loop-hole, there, if the thief notices first that they can get in they can buy all the stock, get in, get all the gold and then go, making the result the same as if they'd just stolen everything, whilst you could also stop that by having privs on the shop saying this person can't buy from it it wouldn't be hard to get around that, either.

As someone who's owned and/or maintained shops, I still don't agree with them being unable to be robbed. I've been robbed before. It's not a big deal, really. You roll your eyes, call yourself an idiot, and then restock.

I -like- there being risks and consequences for everything. I think it adds to the game when there are things you need to do for personal protection, even for investments such as shops. I like how immersive things are, and I hate the idea that we have to overmoderate things because some people get too involved to one particular aspect.

On the other hand, the idea of only gold being picked up from stockrooms would still allow for this immersion and risk as well as keeping it realistic. The ability to limit who can shop at a particular shop should be effective enough to cover the loophole.


Also: The earlier comment about demigods having it easier to get gold- seriously, what is it with you and endgamers? If you're not able to make money in Lusternia, you're either lazy or not operating at full capacity. We have comms quests, bards/scholars, pilgrims, powerquests, village quests as well as more than one area that's designed for gold bahsing. I won't believe that only demigods can earn gold.