'Yes' to anything available to the general public, even it's expensive things like beasts and artifacts. Sometimes Justice favors the prepared?

P.S. I'm not competing for any Seal, so I have no major bias.

To have the Justice Challenge be more than just letting the RNG decide, you need to let people prepare stuff that helps.

Also, people participating in the Chaos, War, Harmony, and Death Challenges use all their skills, so why not in Justice too? I.e. ego regen skills.

If both people know their way around debate, and have a decent set of triggers for handling it, how is it anything but pure luck or who has the best stats, buffs, etc.?

One of the biggest issues in Justice is charisma buffs but this thread hasn't talked much about it. Going to restrict shrine and cult powers that give ego regens, but not restrict thrones, Netzach, or changelings taking on a charismatic race, too?

I don't see why Justice should be different from, say, War, where preparation (including ladling on all the boosts you can afford) is a key element of the competition. Are those guild skills (etc.) really so unbalanced in debates? If so, maybe we should fix that, since no one's stopping people using them in real debates in village influencing, instead of preserving the imbalance on 364 days of the year and then trying to use special rules around them on one day.

I would like to see a layout much like the following:
Allowed
Bromides
Sparkleberry
Healing scrolls

Not allowed
Shrine powers
Trueheal
Refresh Me
Divinefire

Being discussed
Beasts
Roulade

(Not a complete listing of course, just to get a general gist of things)

The way it would work is this: Only things on the "allowed" list are allowed. The "being discussed" list simply lets people know whether or not a skill is being considered (but unless it is on the allowed list it is not to be used). Thus, the burden is on us to raise skills as a "should this be admitted or not?," with final decision resting in the Admin's hands.

At least, if it is decided to ban some things, this is probably about the best way to go about it. If you don't go strictly by a "list of allowed items only" basis someone will just keep skill X to themselves and use it with a "Hey, you didn't say I couldn't!". Whereas if they have to bring it up in order to have a chance of using it, they're more likely to.

Either that or allow everything. I just wanted the thing sorted out before the challenge, so it's not sitting there for an hour while people are making last-minute yay or nay decisions.

I suppose we'll be banning trueheal, divinefire, etc. from the War challenge as well?

Both have already been mentioned here, but I'll repeat them anyway (to be discussed):

- Highmagic / Netzach
- Psionics / Ironwill

I'd also vote for an 'allowed' list as the final instance.

To Lendren: During those 364 days of a year, not only can you run from debates in most cases if you're about to lose them, losing them also generally means much less. If, for the death challenge, your performance against a single mob would determine the outcome, my guess is that the rules would be pretty strict there, too. Also, Justice is easier to balance out... somewhat.

Doesn't really belong here, but trueheal is a normal guild skill, I don't really see why it should be barred from usage in the War challenge.

... I do. It might have something to do with "full heal for 10p only and can be used off-balance, so it doesn't even slow down your debating. And, in fact, can even make your next debate attack faster if you right it right after your last attack."

They'd be able to pop it off easily at least once every debate.

War challenge, not Justice.

Is sleeping permitted in the justice challenge? *chin*

Oh, indeed. I mis-read given the context of the thread (though that would explain the "It doesn't really belong here" line. )

Well darn. I was hoping that the presence of this thread meant that they were going to post the Justice rules ahead of time.

Not allowing changelinging at all probably DURING the event...as it's a free heal, isn't it?

I think it only increases h/m/e when you are at 100% for them already otherwise they remain the same

When aetherhunting, I usually heal my willpower by changing race...though I admit, my h/m/e are typically full in space.

Beasts (again I have an ego healing beast) shouldnt be allowed really.

Roulade is not open to public, goldenhorn is. No roulade.

Non public regen buffs should also not be allowed. Ala harmony regen, presence from ascendance, ironwill, etc.

Alot of people complained last year that I won because of roulade while using the Silent Treatment*.


* Silent treatment is a trademark of Richter I think. It means not to aggro but to use mindset to deal damage.

If you don't feel like reading any of this, please at least read the last couple paragraphs.

There definitely needs a cut and dry No list. The problem is that we need general guidelines to formulate this list. People keep naming things as if by a standard but then name something else that would contradict that standard.

I think beasts and goldenhorn and goldenbox (not aggressive by the way) should be allowed. Enchantments and beastmastery are available to all easily. If no goldenhorn or goldenbox then why beauty enchantment? All or nothing right?

We need a list of all guildskills that should not be allowed, but we need a guideline to help make it easier to determine which should be and shouldn't. Charisma buffs should be okay such as Netzach. The buff weight system sets a cap on the amount of charisma points that you can increase by.

All artifacts should be allowed since they are available to all to purchase. If people can't change races then should we not be able to wear life runes or ego regeneration runes? What's to stop someone from buying a dagger to reincarnate?

If we are taking out roulade, we must take out laeticia as well as twirl staff and all other active ego recovery abilities that are not enchantments. (i'm sure there's others)

If we want to limit more guild skills then someone stated some good guidelines earlier. No sip bonus/malus abilities, no increased ego (not charisma but just ego) abilities, no abilities that give ego regeneration outside of the the normal level 1 level 2 and level 3 regeneration. In this case, shrine heal, ironwill, moondance light (which can't be used anyways), maiden (fae), drink (night). I'm sure there are others.

This is going to have to be an all or nothing sort of deal here. Really I can scan the skillsets and list it all if it must be done and I'm starting to feel like it must. Because as people said, this part will be touchy.

If we are saying no shrine powers in general that also works. On top of this, Cosmic Quicken should not be allowed. It does in fact work with debating and will double someone's debating speed temporariliy.

I am inclined to say that demigod powers should be allowed unless you are asking us to also negate our permanant +2 charisma(non buff weighted) and ego regeneration. Of course I am a little biased with that since I feel everyone can work or not work for it given aetherspace and double experience events.

I also feel people who have earned Avatar should be able to use it because everyone can reach this, but again this can go either way.

No presence.

And this last bit doesn't have anything to do with the specific event rather than the events in general. But I think people should only be able to win a seal once and not compete again with the exception of being on a wargames team since someone else can win that seal even if the team wins. With this, everyone who currently has a seal should be allowed to compete for the final staff each year should they desire it.

To me, this is pretty unfair to true ascendants. It feels like a penalty for winning true ascendant. You are no longer able to compete, you are no longer able to win credits with everyone else. People who win seals and don't even try to become true ascendants will just keep the seal and compete the following year just to trade in a seal. Vernal ascendants can do this and still get just about every benefit that a true ascendant has. I know that is why I prefer being a vernal ascendant to a true ascendant. So these true ascendants just sit by and watch people have fun and win prizes, but just cause they won they cannot participate as well. Meanwhile, they have to watch people who have won seals compete, win again and trade it in for 2000 credits. There has only been three Ascension events, but it has already started happening.

The alternative is to just allow true ascendants to compete and not win seals. It is the easier solution as there are less true ascendants than non true ascendants. However, this is a bit less fair to those who have not won or placed in events any of the years. They may become discouraged thinking they have no chance and give up participating altogether.

Really, these events should be fun.

I agree, let me play for credits please

None of this fits with the original post though. None of the things that people want restricted are on par with divinefire. Well, maybe illusions are.